Evo magazine

[st4]

pro karting at Knockhill anyone :bannana:

On the full circuit? Done the outdoor karting on the karting circuit. Terrific fun.

LTD, bear in mind I have drive other RWD cars than my "fat hipped 211 on chinese rubber". I've had a proper E500 coupe on the MB world skidpan to have a play with along with a relatives Z4 BMW etc.

I also think you are completely wrong in the statement that you have to drive a car right up to its peformance envelope to appreciate its drive line. Its the subtlies about a RWD you get, the way it steers, the feel of being pushed, it feels neautral. Jump in your golf then into your merc and you will see what I mean. You dont need to be hooning your limo lenght S class to realise who it works and how it feels.

 

[gIzzE]

I owned an E30 325i fairly recently, no traction nonsense just a nice lightweight rwd car with a limited slip diff and loads of fun.
That car really did teach me how to drive a RWD car, I learnt more in that in a month than I did in 3 years of M3 and M3 CSL ownership and 15 years of regular BMWs and Mercs.

 

[LTD]

I also think you are completely wrong in the statement that you have to drive a car right up to its peformance envelope to appreciate its drive line.

Actually, you have to step over that line to appreciate it - especially handling.

 

[st4]

Actually, you have to step over that line to appreciate it - especially handling.

Maybe we are all different, yes its fun to slide the thing around on roundabouts, and heaven forbid, a deserted car park, but day in day out, its the subtitles you appreciate in my book with such a car. I had a magical time on the dukes pass, covering silly speeds, and using the cars acceleration to adjust it mid bend and to induce a mild oversteer to get it round the bends easier and powering out of it and taming the throttle so it wouldn't break away, so much more fun. You dont get to go on roads like that all the time, but a cheeky wet roundabout always available....

I cannot describe it, its at the helm of the wheel, that feeling the front wheels are doing just the steering.

Actually RWD is handy in town, those tight mini roundabouts if you need to turn round, plant it and turn it round tail out style, easier than steering....

Anyway, back on topic. The letter is there if you are a regular reader, and if you are not, and you care to buy the magazine, then you can read it there.

Whether those agree or disagree with what is written in the letter does not take away that its made letter of the month, maybe because its an area that fuel debates amongst car enthusiasts, and it has certainly sparked up a conversation on here.

Next question, I will be getting a road Angel professional connected, I have a Tom Tom with speed camera database, will this device be muc better. Probably not. As the Road Angel wont have Navi I am probably best selling it, so who will be willing to make me an offer for the device once I get it.

Steven, it will not work in your car. Cars that have climate insulating glass and/or double glazing cannot get a GPS signal from within the cockpit.

 

[wemorgan]

Ultimately it's always about learning and enjoying, what ever car you're driving.

Throw yourself in to the world of tuning and kit cars and it's a financially crippling exercise. I'm not convinced those people who spend the ££££ enjoy their cars proportionally more.

Keep it simple and keep it fun, and oh yes, keep it legal.

 

[flango]

On the full circuit? Done the outdoor karting on the karting circuit. Terrific fun.

Unfortunately not but its an extended part of the track using paddock and pit area, pro karts on the full circuit now that would be fun

Best cars on Knockhill are the mid engined sports cars track is really suited to them and also 911's

Megane R26 is a dog, worst car I have ever driven around nurburgring, in fact that bad I took it back and swapped it for a golf gti with DSG box, that was absolutely brilliant leagues above the megane. Never driven a french car yet that was any good

Some of the Jap stuff is good and love my Scooby and the Skyline before it, but if you want power and safety it has to be 4x4,

 

[Charles Morgan]

I have driven a fair mix of both, and it just depends on the car. The bother with FWD is torque steer, but on the other hand you can explore your limits safely. I have driven VR6s and Integras on track and they have been fantastic fun, but then a Lotus Elise or a Caterham Seven gives an immensely satisfying drive on track too. On the road I am thoroughly enjoying my 02, a beautifully light car with oodles of grip and when the front suspension is sorted and the steering tightened up I suspect it is going to be even more of a hoot.

On the other hand, I had too many rear end becoming the front with my BMW E30 325, and I was over the moon when it got nicked. The Fiat coupe that replaced it was a hoot to drive in comparison (when the electrics let me).

Well done on your letter Steve!

 

[Palmball]

Made an interesting read Steve - well done for getting it to letter of the month

BTW...I too prefer RWD and if I'm honest, my least favourable is 4WD after experiencing the Porsche....too much a point-and-shoot type of style for my liking and also much too much understeer to drive through before being able to 'play about' (and this was in the Porsche which was 99% RWD until it felt the front axle was needed...goodness knows what a permanent 4WD would seem like )

 

[The _Don]

Made an interesting read Steve - well done for getting it to letter of the month

BTW...I too prefer RWD and if I'm honest, my least favourable is 4WD after experiencing the Porsche....too much a point-and-shoot type of style for my liking and also much too much understeer to drive through before being able to 'play about' (and this was in the Porsche which was 99% RWD until it felt the front axle was needed...goodness knows what a permanent 4WD would seem like )

Hi hope you are well,how are you getting on with your maserati ?

 

[moonloops]

I had a Civic Type R from new and it was utter tripe. They are probably good on the track but on the road the rock hard suspension, naff electric steering and lack of torque made it a joke.

Other end of the spectrum, my impreza Type R import with the power dialled mostly to the read was great.

 

[Palmball]

Hi hope you are well,how are you getting on with your maserati ?

Doing well thanks...and I'm really liking the Maserati.

It's far from the quickest thing I've owned (it's about the same as a standard C63....just) but it's just beautiful and every journey is an occasion...helped along by the Ferrari soundtrack. It doesn't have anything that annoys me really such as rattles etc (they're a big turn-off and I would sell a car that has a rattle which can't be fixed....it was one of my biggest gripes about the Porsche). Despite this, I do have a couple of expensive mods planned but then of course...I would, wouldn't I

Number one is the audio - it has Bose much like the Porsche did but in comparison to the system in that car, it may as well be Alba...it's an appalling system and I'd be seriously p!ssed off if I was the original owner who'd paid in excess of £1k for it from the factory. Yes, I know I shouldn't be listening to the stereo when I've got the lovely engine sound but I do like my in-car sounds so it's an important part of the enjoyment for me.

I've found an audio company who has upgraded a Granturismo previously (the Sound Gallery in High Wycombe anyone?) and whilst the system they're trying to sell me is nearly £3k, it is made up of very high-end JL components and apparently it's very effectively installed (with nothing at all on show). I'm trying to reduce that cost by 1/3 as we speak lol!

Number two is...wait for it....wait.....the suspension. Here we go again! The car is actually very nicely balanced but just a little 'floaty' despite being the stiffer 'S' model. I drove the new MC Stradale last week which is actually very similarly set-up bar different springs, dampers, ant-roll-bars and bushes. As I personally know the workshop manager at my local Fezzer/Maser dealer (and very useful he is too), he's actually managed to price up the whole MC set-up for £2k fitted. OK, the components still won't be as good as the coilovers that I fitted to the C63 but the MC set-up rides better than mine AND rids the car of most of the roll and float. That price is fitted and set up by the main dealer and using all the bits from the MC....so not just springs and dampers but all the bushes, anti-roll bars etc...a bloody bargain I reckon!

Some of us just can't be helped!

Steve - big apologies for the thread hijack...I'll stop whining on about my overweight Fiat now.

 

[st4]

Andy, no need to applogise, the Maser mods sound an ideal way of making the car more hardcore, but maybe you'll lose on the softer/more cosseting aspects of the car. I read a review of the MC stradale and the concesus was it was comfortable, but more fun. Its still a very heavy and large car.

Money no object, I would love a Maserati GT, I see one on my walk into work, and think, one day, one day son.

 

[timskemp]

There are so many moments when RWD is by far the better choice, but all those moments involve driver enjoyment and the driver being aware of how the car will behave.

Front drive cars will mostly understeer their way into an impact, making it easier to design occupant safety (by concentrating on front impacts).

But for a driver to understand what the car's relationship with the road is at any one time, stering feel is massively important, and in a rear drive car the steering feel is far superior than a front drive car.

 

[bpsorrel]

I've sampled the civic type r and just thought it was tedious.

The most impressive of the ilk was a MK V diesel golf but it was so light at the back, and the stand out thing was the DSG which made the car, but it was jump into and go.

Todays drive in the merc, wobbling hips, mild corrective lock, ESP intervention (I love the way it works so I provoke it sometimes). I tried all this in a FWD and you cannot do this.

The main thing, day in, day out over a FWD is the subtleties.

The steering, completely uncorrupted.

Cornerning, the complete feeling of balance, and being able to use the go pedal to midly adjust the additute for the car in the bend.

Just missing from a FWD. FWD was soley invented to save space in the car and costs. Nothing else.

Imagine your intergra with the rear wheels drive, still all the poise, but more adjustable, and more fun!!

I suspect though it comes down to taste as there are many FWD car owners who love the way their cars drive, I am just not a fan.

I recently picked up a last gen Toyota Celica 190 for some fun and urban driving and I have to say the FWD chassis is superb! The nearest I've felt to this car's handling was my old Alfasud which in itself was a benchmark for FWD handling and steering. Most impressive.

 

[wemorgan]

Front drive cars will mostly understeer their way into an impact, making it easier to design occupant safety (by concentrating on front impacts).

I've not personally seen OEMs give more preference to front crash performance in FWD than RWD cars. Incidentally a RWD car with a longitudinally mounted engine can give more even performance to LHD and RHD derivatives, which is not always the case to FWD cars with transverse engines.

Mid and rear engined cars can have different crash performance than front engined cars, which is one area where FWD and RWD cars can differ.

 

[st4]

There are so many moments when RWD is by far the better choice, but all those moments involve driver enjoyment and the driver being aware of how the car will behave.

Front drive cars will mostly understeer their way into an impact, making it easier to design occupant safety (by concentrating on front impacts).

But for a driver to understand what the car's relationship with the road is at any one time, stering feel is massively important, and in a rear drive car the steering feel is far superior than a front drive car.

Its also a preference thing, some prefer the safer feel of a FWD, and some do not even notice. 85% of 1 series drivers did not know it was RWD. To me thats the defining characteristic of that car.

I like the steering feel in RWD car, its hard to describe but just nice and uncorrupted.

 

[wemorgan]

85% of 1 series drivers did not know it was RWD. To me thats the defining characteristic of that car.

Conversely I knew of a BMW Mini owner who thought his car was RWD, because that's what all BMW cars are.

Goes to show that FWD/RWD is also about marketing.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

Conversely I knew of a BMW Mini owner who thought his car was RWD, because that's what all BMW cars are.

Goes to show that FWD/RWD is also about marketing.

I don't know how anyone could think they had a RWD, when it's FWD...

I had a drive of my uncles Supercharged Mini John Cooper Works which was about 210 BHP and the torque steer was horrendous! When giving it the beans, I was constantly having to battle with the steering wheel...

A proper Mini on the other hand....

 

[gIzzE]

85% of 1 series drivers did not know it was RWD. To me thats the defining characteristic of that car.

I like the steering feel in RWD car, its hard to describe but just nice and uncorrupted.

Conversely I knew of a BMW Mini owner who thought his car was RWD, because that's what all BMW cars are.

Goes to show that FWD/RWD is also about marketing.

I don't think many people do know whether there cars are RWD or FWD, however, if you start to explain things to them it starts to become obvious what the benefits of each are.

Examples.....

When discussing RWD vs FWD a mate of mine says it really makes no difference to him, not bothered about rear wheel drive at all and the only benefit is when you drive far too fast for the roads anyway.
I was trying to explain that this simply isn't the case. He wouldn't have it. He was in an E46 3 btw so wasn't defending his decision or anything, just said all this RWD stuff was nonsense.

He bought a FWD A6 auto avant recently, overall he was pretty happy with it, but says he is in discussions with Audi due to the fact there is no traction when pulling out of junctions on even damp surfaces, he says it is due to there being too much torque. I then pointed out his 330d had more torque than his 2.0tdi, but being FWD there isn't the traction. As you accelerate the back end squats and the front lifts, and as it lifts the wheels scrabble for traction.....and fail.

He also said that the steering just doesn't feel direct, says that his 330d used to feel like it was pivoting on the back wheels, as if went wherever you pointed the steering wheel, where as his Audi always feels like you are fighting with the steering wheel, and when you accelerate even more so. Torque steer!!

He insisted it was a BMW vs Audi thing rather than RWD vs FWD, I let him take my E Class out for a spin. He now believes me.

He will be buying RWD next time.


Even my mum who has a 118d always says how wonderful the steering feels on her car, and it is due to the RWD, she doesn't know that, but then I wouldn't expect her to, but that doesn't matter, all she knows is she prefers it. I think most owners will be the same. Go from a RWD to a FWD and 90% of the time it will feel dull and muted in comparison, just a shame most owners don't realise why.

 

[st4]

Bang on guy, my boss had a 1er and always used to talk of the steering, and said all his BMWs like that, and its because it drives the back wheels. They just feel nice. I drove an Audi S6 and it was unbeleivable in the wet, but had a duller feel to it and it was because was a 50:50 front to rear torque split, I knew what to expect before I set off.