F1 2019

[baxlin]

I'm a fan of F1, but watching the highlights is enough at the moment - I’m even happy knowing the result before I watch...

But on the 'boring procession' theme, anyone else noticed what I took to be irony or even sarcasm in the Bose sponsorship ads on the restart after the ads on C4?

Something like "Oh it’s so exciting, two cars going into the chicane together....." - or words to that effect.

 

[GeeJayW]

Formula One is an engineering exercise and not a driver's racing event now. Unfortunately this what you get with multiple full manufacturer teams taking part driving budgets and regulations.

They don't want unpredictability of having a more difficult to drive car.

'Twas ever thus. A brilliantly engineered car driven competently has pretty much always been hard to beat by a competently engineered car being driven brilliantly. One exception being Donnington in '93 when a certain A. Senna scalped the opposition on lap one, in the rain, in an under-powered McLaren.

 

[Darrell]

I remember many moons ago, people said that anybody could sit in a Williams and win.

 

[Bellow]

So maybe not there yet, but what, one more champ elevate based on longevity and the even more stressful demands than some of those guys faced in more privateering days, through all the pitstops and pitfalls...would that qualify? Remember e.g. he managed Ham and Ros and much more, and helped Ham to come back from that better and stronger, and I think upped Hams game seeing the sheer tenacity that Ros had to put in to beat him by a whisker and the probs Ham had that year with reliability...so yes, pretty damn good I maintain.

I'm more inclined to attribute most of what you credit TW with to Niki Lauda.

 

[Bellow]

The Sky F1 interview with Mercedes Tech Director James Allison is well worth a look as he explains the role of suspension in F1.
He rightly states it is there 'just to support the aero platform' but what I hadn't realised on the current car is the that suspension reduces the front ride height with steering lock! Genius! Anyone who has run aero based race cars will understand the enormity of this function.
The more lock applied and the more the dynamics and aerodynamics are front loaded. Brilliant at getting the cars to turn in to low speed turns, and if you are using that much lock at high speed, then you are already having the accident....
Wish I'd thought of that, or had the geometry and hydraulics to make it function back in the day

Does anyone have a link for the interview? If so, please provide! (Googled but cannot find it).

This 'lowering' - absolutely via suspension (not steering geometry as per karts)?

 

[Mactech]

There you go;
2019 France - Development Corner Mercedes Special - Part 2 ...https://www.reddit.com/r/.../2019_france_development_corner_mercedes_special/

 

[bob6600]

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[Mrbottomend]

I'm more inclined to attribute most of what you credit TW with to Niki Lauda.

Yes, good point! Think perhaps made excellent team.. So sad Niki no longer around. Such great memories of the 70s and Hunt et al, and such a cool guy...I get feeling Hamilton respects Wolff though as well...But yes, Niki took him there...one great driver knows another!

 

[Bellow]

The Sky F1 interview with Mercedes Tech Director James Allison is well worth a look as he explains the role of suspension in F1.
He rightly states it is there 'just to support the aero platform' but what I hadn't realised on the current car is the that suspension reduces the front ride height with steering lock! Genius! Anyone who has run aero based race cars will understand the enormity of this function.
The more lock applied and the more the dynamics and aerodynamics are front loaded. Brilliant at getting the cars to turn in to low speed turns, and if you are using that much lock at high speed, then you are already having the accident....
Wish I'd thought of that, or had the geometry and hydraulics to make it function back in the day

'Tis pretty damned cunning - and a Ferrari innovation - not that that matters overly.
Cheers for the links and vid (Mactech and Bob6600). James Allison continues to impress with his eloquent and understandable technical descriptions of what works and why. A nod to Mercedes also for letting him speak so freely - even if Ferrari et al aren't going to learn much from him they don't already know.

 

[Mactech]

'Tis pretty damned cunning - and a Ferrari innovation - not that that matters overly.
Cheers for the links and vid (Mactech and Bob6600). James Allison continues to impress with his eloquent and understandable technical descriptions of what works and why. A nod to Mercedes also for letting him speak so freely - even if Ferrari et al aren't going to learn much from him they don't already know.

Yes, the idea has been around a while, but giving the driver the right feedback through the steering wheel is the really difficult bit.
From the turn of the century most racing sports cars have had power steering, mostly with electrical assistance. I know only too well how difficult is is to give the right 'feel' to the driver. It is the bit which tells him most about the grip level.
In F1 they all have hydraulics, so my guess is that the steering pressure is electrically adjusted to give the correct feel using the already known parameters of speed, steering angle, lat and long G etc. ....and that's the bit which James Allison eludes to being tricky.

 

[Dryce]

Yes, the idea has been around a while, but giving the driver the right feedback through the steering wheel is the really difficult bit.

Is this perhaps where it plays to Lewis Hamilton's strengths - he appears to be able to better adapt to and finesse the machinery that they give him.

 

[Dryce]

James Allison continues to impress with his eloquent and understandable technical descriptions of what works and why.

Pity the UK market as a whole doesn't listen to his comments on tyre profiles!

 

[190]

Pity the UK market as a whole doesn't listen to his comments on tyre profiles!

A great pity but as long as the UK market puts form before function there is little hope for improvement.

 

[Mactech]

Pity the UK market as a whole doesn't listen to his comments on tyre profiles!

There is a compromise here! James would love to have 18" rims on his race car, and may well get them in 2021, but at the moment the idea of keeping 13" rims comes from a ancient belief that that would stop very expensive brake development.....it has been in the F1 regs since the 70's.
He would not relish the 'rubber band' tyres of the 'felt tip fairies'

 

[GeeJayW]

Having 'balloon' tyres surely introduces some unwanted guesswork into the suspension design. Sure the sidewalls soak up kerbs, but as James mentioned as a result the suspension doesn't (can't be allowed to) move much. The tyres are effectively undamped springs designed by (currently) Pirelli and foisted on the teams. Some of the tyre oscillations that show up in super slow motion shots can't be good.

 

[Bellow]

There is a compromise here! James would love to have 18" rims on his race car, and may well get them in 2021, but at the moment the idea of keeping 13" rims comes from a ancient belief that that would stop very expensive brake development.....it has been in the F1 regs since the 70's.
He would not relish the 'rubber band' tyres of the 'felt tip fairies'

At some point between then and now, the tyre manufacturers were asked if they wanted to go lo-pro. They preferred chunky sidewalls - that they could better display their logos on.

The fashion for road cars is just absurd. It's like watching a girl walking across a ploughed field wearing stilettos. Should look good but ends up looking ridiculous.

 

[190]

The fashion for road cars is just absurd. It's like watching a girl walking across a ploughed field wearing stilettos. Should look good but ends up looking ridiculous.

There would be little sympathy if she breaks a heel but at least she wouldn't post it on a forum.

 

[190]

The tyres are effectively undamped springs

Tyres being springs affect the overall spring rate of the suspension system. If you put 2 springs in series i.e. the suspension spring and the tyre, then the tyre softens the resulting overall spring rate. In order to maintain the same overall spring rate, Cars moving to very low profile tyres or for that matter, run flats should be matched with a softer suspension spring. Then there is ride height suspension bushes to throw into the mix. Is it any wonder that when manufacturers threw run flats on a suspension system not originally designed for them it didn't really work. Same goes for big wheels and ultra low profile tyres on a car not designed for them.

 

[Stratman]

^^^^ Yeah, but it's wikkid, innit.

 

[GeeJayW]

Tyres being springs affect the overall spring rate of the suspension system. If you put 2 springs in series i.e. the suspension spring and the tyre, then the tyre softens the resulting overall spring rate. In order to maintain the same overall spring rate, Cars moving to very low profile tyres or for that matter, run flats should be matched with a softer suspension spring. Then there is ride height suspension bushes to throw into the mix. Is it any wonder that when manufacturers threw run flats on a suspension system not originally designed for them it didn't really work. Same goes for big wheels and ultra low profile tyres on a car not designed for them.

Yep.

Another issue in trying to control the contact patch, ride height, angle of attack under load, is where in the overall suspension the various movements occur. The suspension linkages can only control the hubs directly. The contact patches are controlled by proxy via the tyre construction. With lower stiffer sidewall, the link from hub to contact patch is more direct and there is less slip angle. With balloon tyres, however hard you try, there is more uncertainty than you'd like, but it might make the car a bit more forgiving to drive on the limit. I don't have years of driving cars on the limit with different setups to know for sure though.

My car has 19"rims and low-profile run-flat tyres, which are fine on decent roads and in sweeping B-road curves the car handles really well. They are however less than good on rough road surfaces, especially bad at dealing with potholes. It was almost a deal breaker as I wanted 18" rims. Given up trying to find out from Mercedes if the suspension setup is actually tuned differently for 19" RF and 18" conventional. May just fit 18" rims anyway and try it.

BTW, anybody wanting an insight into race car suspension could do worse than read Alan Staniforth's book on the subject. I had an early copy, but it got lost somehow.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Competitio...Construction/dp/185960644X&tag=amazon0e9db-21