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Fuel economy

Got my best tank mpg over the last two weeks. Changed my route to work, went motorway instead of road. Boring but if I go road then first 3 miles twisty uphill, all 2nd and 3rd accel with a cold engine. Motorway is busy, 65 for 1st 4 miles and engine gets warm without being pushed.

MPG went from 26 to 38, knew it would be better but was surpised it was so much.
 
Got my best tank mpg over the last two weeks. Changed my route to work, went motorway instead of road. Boring but if I go road then first 3 miles twisty uphill, all 2nd and 3rd accel with a cold engine. Motorway is busy, 65 for 1st 4 miles and engine gets warm without being pushed.

MPG went from 26 to 38, knew it would be better but was surpised it was so much.

Was the distance similar and what happened to the overall journey time? In the main I stick to motorways if possible as the journey time is fairly constant due to the average speed being greater.
To achieve 40mph driving on A roads means driving very quickly.

The only downside is if caught in a jam on the motorway, happened twice last week.
 
To achieve 40mph driving on A roads means driving very quickly.

LOL. Depends which end of the country you live. Up at the rebellious top end our A roads - even the ones that look more like B roads - allow decent average speeds most of the time.
 
Since wind resistance increases with the square of the speed, it's fairly easy to see what will happen.
At 70mph the wind resistance will be 36% higher than at 60mph, so it would be fair to assume that the engine has to produce more power to overcome this additional resistance. More power means more fuel.
You cannot alter that state of affairs, a lower cruising speed just makes the journey seem longer and boring.
 
Was the distance similar and what happened to the overall journey time? In the main I stick to motorways if possible as the journey time is fairly constant due to the average speed being greater.
To achieve 40mph driving on A roads means driving very quickly.

The only downside is if caught in a jam on the motorway, happened twice last week.

The total distance is 1 mile longer by motorway, 9 miles instead of 8 miles. Journey time is pretty much the same, usually 20 minutes. The motorway route is one mile of road either side of the 7 miles on the motorway.
 
^ So you need to factor the 12% additional mileage into the equation.
 
Your right I do, if I just do a straight sum then the car uses 0.32 of a gallon using the A road, 0.24 of a gallon using the motorway.

To be honest, I'm just glad to see something over mid 30's. I've only had the car for 6 weeks, I was beginning to wonder what was happening with the fuel consumption. Although its not my number 1 priority, its good to know it can do that if I want to.
 
Surely interia must play some part of this conumdrum?

To get the car to 70 rather than 60 must use more fuel but only an imeassurable amount.

Kinetic energy is ½mv², and let's assume your car is 1500kg. 60mph is ~27m/s; 70mph is ~31m/s.

At 60mph, your car has a kinetic energy of ½×1500×27² = 547kJ. At 70mph, it's ½×1500×31² = 721kJ, a difference of 174kJ.

Internal combustion engines run at an average efficiency of about 20% and a maximum of no more than 40%. As high load is where engines are more efficient, let's use 33.3% (1/3) as the number to make the maths easier. Ignoring friction and additional wind resistance for the moment, our engine needs to burn 174×3 = 522kJ of fuel to generate the required additional kinetic energy.

Petrol has an energy density of 32MJ/litre; diesel is around 36MJ/litre; 522kJ is thus somewhere between 1/60 and 1/70 of a litre; about a tablespoon extra over the time you take to change speed.

So accelerating from 60mph to 70mph costs you about 2p on top of the fuel you're using to maintain the 60mph in the first place. ;)

522kJ is about 26g of Mars Bar; a so-called "fun size" Mars Bar is just under 20g.

When the car is at 70 would it not then take the same amount of mpg to keep it there?

With frictionless bearings and tyres in a vacuum, yes, it would. As already stated, the majority of drag on a car at speed is wind resistance.

If you've ever ridden a bicycle with multiple gears, you'll realize that on the flat, your maximum speed is not regulated by your legs' maximum rotation. A bike and rider are pretty poor aerodynamically, so at only 20mph, 80% of the energy exerted by the rider is in overcoming wind resistance, and that goes up with the square of the speed.

A car is in exactly the same position, but with better aerodynamics and stronger "legs", the numbers are just a bit higher.

If your postulate were correct, cars would be unlimited in their top speed — a small engine would eventually provide the energy to get to any speed and hold it there. That's clearly not the case, though, which is why you need the best part of a thousand horsepower to get to 250mph.

The optimum speed for economy in any car is slow: I'd guess around 30mph depending on the gearing. The myth that 55 or 56mph is optimum comes from the old days of fuel consumption measurement when figures were quoted at constant 56 and constant 75mph. Many cars' designs (engine/gearing matches) were influenced by the desire to give good 56mph figures, but that's still too fast for best economy as the wind resistance is dominating at that speed.

In summary, drive at a speed you're comfortable with, bearing in mind that the faster you go, the worse your economy gets at a worse-than-linear rate.
 
Does anyone drive diesel and petrol cars (alternately of course)?

I notice a difference in the way that I drive dependent on fuel.

Motorway mainly:

In a diesel I tend to use speedtronic and autobox and just floor it until limiter kicks in, in my mind this makes no difference to fuel consumption compared to gentle throttle use.

In a petrol, usually manual, I'll pay far more attention to throttle control and gear selection. Not necessarily for reasons of economy but to ensure smooth running, diesels seem less prone to rough running because of poor gear selection.

The result?

Large 3 litre diesel was 40mpg average
Medium sized 3 litre petrol 33mpg average

Not that much in it, especially given the extra cost of maintaining the diesel - shorter service intervals and repair/replacement of parts such as injectors.
 
Last summer I was coming back from a weeks break, on quiet A roads, and came up behind 2 lorries, I followed them for 23 miles, they really knew the road, I only touched the brakes twice, both times for roundabouts, I averaged 53mpg and 46mph, most of the time cruising at 50+. After they turned off I eased up to 55+, but braked occasionally for bends etc. I then got 48mpg and 48mph over 40 miles. 'nuff said'
 
When the car is at 70 would it not then take the same amount of mpg to keep it there?

In a W203 C200K, to maintain 60mph requires 22bhp in order to overcome 369N of rolling resistance and 225N of aerodynamic drag at that speed.

To maintain 70mph requires 29bhp in order to overcome the same 369N of rolling resistance and 307N of aerodynamic drag.

For comparison, you need only 16bhp at 50mph, and 12bhp at 40 mph.

Similiarly, you need 37bhp at 80mph, and 47bhp at 90mph.

At speeds lower than 77mph, the rolling resistance is the larger resistance, however at that point aerodynamic drag takes over.

Your theoretical top speed is 139mph, requiring 132bhp to overcome the same old 369N of rolling resistance and 1210N of aerodynamic drag.

The missing 29bhp will have gone in transmission losses, before the power ever gets to the road.
 
We should campaign to get all that pesky air pumped away from the roads. Bobby Dazzler: whence cometh those figures?
 
Not even slightly as the air resistance goes up exponentially, a few mph turns into twice the effort.

The bugatti veryron supersport needed another 200bhp to get an extra 10mph on the top speed!

Agreed, the last few mph are hard to come by.

I've not got the data for the Supersport, but I do have the data for the regular 'soft' :D Veryon in front of me.

The theoretical top speed of the soft one is 254mph and it requires 821bhp to do it, with 244mph requiring 732bhp. The final 10mph of top speed requires 100bhp.

The final 200bhp buys the Veyron an extra 24mph. Not much mph for a lot more oomph :D
 
whence cometh those figures?

A few calculations based upon the following data which I harvested from the interweb a few years ago:

transmission losses 18%
engine power (at the flywheel) 161 BHP
engine power (at the wheels) 132 BHP
engine power (at the wheels) 98 kW
vehicle track 1.505 m
vehicle height 1.426 m
maximum vehicle cross section 1.93 m*m
vehicle mass (weight) (kg) 1505 kg
air density 1.202 kg/(m*m*m)
drag coefficient 0.27
headwind speed 0 m/s
gradient angle 0 degrees
rolling resistance coefficient (tarmac) 0.025

Whilst I can account for headwind and gradient, they're assumed to be zero for the calculations.

If you're interested, search mbclub for "theoretical top speed" and you'll see a few more examples.
 
If I understand BD's maths here there is a direct link between the speed and bhp requirement (other variables including gearing being equal). So in order to translate this into fuel efficiency, I suppose you would need to work out the relative lengths of time that the throttle is open and delivering the power. Hence the 37bhp at 80mph would require the throttle to be open for twice as long as the 12bhp at 40mph, so to travel the same distance, 40mph would need roughly 65% of the fuel that would be used at 80mph. This sounds a little lower than I'd have expected but not too far away.
 
If I understand BD's maths here there is a direct link between the speed and bhp requirement (other variables including gearing being equal). So in order to translate this into fuel efficiency, I suppose you would need to work out the relative lengths of time that the throttle is open and delivering the power. Hence the 37bhp at 80mph would require the throttle to be open for twice as long as the 12bhp at 40mph, so to travel the same distance, 40mph would need roughly 65% of the fuel that would be used at 80mph. This sounds a little lower than I'd have expected but not too far away.

You mean "half as long" for the same distance, and you're assuming "burn-and-coast" to get the same engine efficiency. An engine will have wildly differing efficiencies depending on rpm and load. Look up "BSFC charts" to find out more.

But no, there isn't a direct link. There's a constant part, a velocity part and a velocity-squared part. You can't generalize to say that travelling at x requires y% of the fuel to travel at 2x.

However, once you start going "fast", the v² aero drag part dominates, so you'd not be far wrong to state you need 400% of the fuel to travel at 75mph to maintain 150mph.
 
If I understand BD's maths here there is a direct link between the speed and bhp requirement (other variables including gearing being equal). So in order to translate this into fuel efficiency, I suppose you would need to work out the relative lengths of time that the throttle is open and delivering the power.

Correct there is a link between speed and the amount of power (bhp) required to maintain that speed - power is simply a measure of work done, the amount of energy consumed in a unit of time.

So from power you can work out the demand for energy, and from that you could calculate the amount of fuel required, given the right formulae and assumptions.

Whilst there are many variables, I'm sure it's possible to cut through them in much the same way that you can to approximate the top speed from the power available, with similar accuracy.

I guess the key difference which will introduce a difference between the approximation and reality is how the driver chooses to reach and maintain a speed, eg on/off or consistent accelerator, etc. That doesn't really come in to the power/speed calculations.
 
So in order to translate this into fuel efficiency, I suppose you would need to work out the

engine's efficient operating regime, the correct balance between rpm and throttle pedal, for the load encountered (rolling reisistance, aero drag) and drive accordingly. This point is different for different engines especially between petrol and Diesels, and it is the where the engines losses (mechanical friction, air pumping work, heat loss) are minimised. See Troons advice re BSFC.
 
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Thanks for correcting my sums and the extra information guys! I'm no 56mph crawler and have experienced little difference in trip mpg figures between low 60s and 70 so I guess there is more in play here than the effect of wind resistence.
 
so I guess there is more in play here than the effect of wind resistence.

Are you a 'throttle pumper'?!!!

It's surprising how many are. Sit in with someone who spends a day at the wheel at a time to see how the best combination of speed and economy are obtained. Stopping for re-fueling doesn't make for good journey times!
 

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