Hybrid Ml On The Way

[hawk20]

According to reports in AutoExpress, Mercedes have been working with BMW and GM to develop hybrid technology to go with its BlueTec diesel engines. It is said that a Hybrid ML will be available in 2009.

I am surprised because in a test across America -coast to coast as they say- the diesel ML did more mpg than the Hybrid Lexus 4x4.

 

[Dieselman]

True, but this will be a diesel hybrid so will be far more efficient.

The theory is that the engine will run at peak torque to charge the batteries so will be in it's most efficient range.

 

[hawk20]

Any idea what sort of mpg they might get. ML is around 29mpg combined. The Lexus 4x4 hybrid is 35 combined but the local Lexus dealer told me none of his customers get anywhere near that figure. Odd.

 

[DuFFmAn]

Very true indeed... Got a GS450h myself and its nowhere near as good on fuel as claimed by the manufactures....

It may have something to do with my right foot though

 

[grober]

Neither on thing or the other

For highway driving here's a novel idea to decrease fuel consumption--- how about a much lighter aerodynamic vehicle set closer to the ground with decreased rolling resistance. Should be much more economical on fuel than trying to accelerate a large heavy brick shaped object with big tyres thro the air. I know--- lets call it a "saloon car". I wonder if anyone makes them?
For prolonged off road use I would be very wary of heavy complex transmission systems with electric motors and batteries standing up to harsh transmission shocks and the violent vehicle movements and vibrations experienced on rough terrain.
I think if I was in the middle of nowhere and reliant on a 4x4 vehicle I would prefer the simplest diesel powertrain available. One thing going for large hybrid 4x4 vehicles is there is normally plenty room for all the hybrid technology so maybe thats why manufacturers seem keen on them. A hybrid 4x4 is neither one thing or the other IMHO sorry.

 

[Satch]

Very true indeed... Got a GS450h myself and its nowhere near as good on fuel as claimed by the manufactures....

It may have something to do with my right foot though

Am I right in thinking that in terms of pure electrical motive power 2km at up to 40kph is the limit but that the electric motor is really there to add a bit more performance whilst wearing a hybrid badge?

Jeremy Clarkson said something along the lines that on such a basis you could connect a PP9 battery to a Hummer and claim it as a Eco-Friendly Hybrid exempt from Congestion Charging!

 

[Dieselman]

For prolonged off road use I would be very wary of heavy complex transmission systems with electric motors and batteries standing up to harsh transmission shocks and the violent vehicle movements and vibrations experienced on rough terrain.

Are the roads in Kensington and Chelsea really that bad now?

 

[hawk20]

For highway driving here's a novel idea to decrease fuel consumption--- how about a much lighter aerodynamic vehicle set closer to the ground with decreased rolling resistance. Should be much more economical on fuel than trying to accelerate a large heavy brick shaped object with big tyres thro the air. I know--- lets call it a "saloon car". I wonder if anyone makes them?
.

I think you completely miss the point of 4x4's. They are high up and very roomy, stylish, sporty estate cars. Four wheel drive is just a bonus. Although I drive a saloon at the moment I had an ML270cdi for 15,000 miles and I loved it. And very practical as the boot part is much higher than an estate. Image is an important feature of all cars and there is a rugged, sporty, recreational, caravanning, boat towing, camping, country life sort of image tied in to the 4x4's. Many of them, like the 270cdi do 30 mpg which is better than many saloons.

 

[grober]

Many of them, like the 270cdi do 30 mpg which is better than many saloons.

As a valid comparison lets compare the overall MPGs of 2 vehicles with the same engine.
mercedes E class estate 270 CDi mpg overall 37
mercedes M class 4x4 270 CDi mpg overall 29

I agree with you that there are lots of good reasons for owning a 4x4 but fuel efficiency is not one of them!

 

[hawk20]

As a valid comparison lets compare the overall MPGs of 2 vehicles with the same engine.
mercedes E class estate 270 CDi mpg overall 37
mercedes M class 4x4 270 CDi mpg overall 29

I agree with you that there are lots of good reasons for owning a 4x4 but fuel efficiency is not one of them!

I agree with that. But fuel efficiency is not all. It is equally true that a mini uses less fuel than a supermini, uses less fuel than a family saloon, uses less fuel than a large exec saloon and so on. If the only criterion is to save fuel, we could all end up in Smart Cars. Put me down for the Brabus version, please.

 

[hawk20]

On a more serious note about making valid comparisons: a lot of people criticise 4x4's often on fuel economy. Yet the ML 270cdi has a combined figure of 29mpg. They criticise that as a 4x4 but not the loads of petrol saloon cars that do far less miles per gallon. Just not logical. Endless remarks even on this forum such as 4x4's not necessary in towns etc. But nobody says the same about the 5 litre V8 SL500 do they?

 

[miro]

Any idea what sort of mpg they might get. ML is around 29mpg combined. The Lexus 4x4 hybrid is 35 combined but the local Lexus dealer told me none of his customers get anywhere near that figure. Odd.

Any long distance or heavy vehicle does not gain anything with hybrid. The main purpose of hybrid is city traffic.

 

[grober]

I wasn't having ago at 4x4s tho it might appear I was. What I was pointing out was the inconsistency of trying to make a big 4x4 vehicle more fuel efficient when its basic design parameters---high ground clearance---large frontal area--- large section tyres---4wheel drive transmission drag---heavy construction--and large overall size / weight are all working against fuel efficiency. [ These characteristics are of course the very thing that gives them their appeal to buyers, I freely admit that ] Seems a pointless engineering exercise for marginal gains when much more can be gained by adopting the fundamentally more fuel efficient design offered by a saloon/estate running the same power plant?? If you want to use less fuel and reduce CO2 emissions thats the best engineering way to go rather than fiddling about with hybrid transmissions. By all means buy a big 4x4 vehicle and enjoy it for what it is, but don't ever kid yourself about its impact on the environment.
I like big cars with big wuffly V8s honest, but I fear their days are numbered in todays legislative climate.

 

[hawk20]

I wasn't having ago at 4x4s tho it might appear I was. What I was pointing out was the inconsistency of trying to make a big 4x4 vehicle more fuel efficient when its basic design parameters---high ground clearance---large frontal area--- large section tyres---4wheel drive transmission drag---heavy construction--and large overall size / weight are all working against fuel efficiency. [ These characteristics are of course the very thing that gives them their appeal to buyers, I freely admit that ] Seems a pointless engineering exercise for marginal gains when much more can be gained by adopting the fundamentally more fuel efficient design offered by a saloon/estate running the same power plant?? If you want to use less fuel and reduce CO2 emissions thats the best engineering way to go rather than fiddling about with hybrid transmissions. By all means buy a big 4x4 vehicle and enjoy it for what it is, but don't ever kid yourself about its impact on the environment.
I like big cars with big wuffly V8s honest, but I fear their days are numbered in todays legislative climate.

Odd argument really. It is no more illogical to try and improve the fuel efficiency of 4x4's than it is to try to improve the fuel efficiency of saloon cars -or sports cars or lorries or delivery vans. All types have their uses and we should seek to improve them all. Freedom of choice. It makes no more sense to say a 4x4 owner should buy a saloon than it does to say a saloon owner should buy a Smart Car. They are different things for different tastes and different purposes.

In a Topgear article it said a lot of young married people cannot face going the whole hog and buying an egg shaped MPV like a Previa, or Espace, or Sharan or Galaxy but wanting height and space for kids and loads of junk they find the 4x4 more acceptable. And why not. One months output from China (now growing at over 10% p.a.) swamps the CO2 from all our cars.

Why should the ML270cdi owner doing 30mpg combined be hectored when the two litre petrol Espace does less miles per gallon and escapes uncriticised?

Why not the owners of big engined sports cars?

 

[grober]

I think we are arguing at cross purposes here about 2 different things so best to agree to differ I guess.

 

[Dieter]

Hi,

Hybrids appear to show better fuel economy because of the unrealistic nature of Government fuel tests i.e. slow acceleration times etc. as this prolongs the running time using electrical power only. I believe that current Nickel hydride batteries can only sustain the Prius for 1 mile but future Lithium ion batteries should be OK for 30 miles.

Hybrids are being developed in bigger vehicles a) to decrease fuel usage, b) cos they are heavy and this is not such a significant problem in bigger vehicles and c) they're very expensive (£4k - £5k). So initial use in bigger/heavier vehicles, especially diesel powered, will act as another platform to make this technology cheaper and more efficient.

Are hybrids more 'eco' friendly anyway? The batteries have to be made and this produces CO2's . All these so called 'green' hybrid users conveniently forget this. This is also true of the increased use of Aluminium (to lighten car) as it's use is also more energy intensive than that of Iron.

So a lightweight/hybrid driver gets their vehicle with a significant 'eco' penalty but drives about as if they are the only one's responsible for saving the planet .

The only real reason for buying a hybrid is to avoid (London) congestion charges (not me as I use the train).

Would I buy a hybrid ML? not if there is a £5K premium over equivalent non-hybrid model.

A better way forward, imho, is for Mercedes (and other car manufacturers) to introduce automatic stop/start mechanisms (which is one of the significant reasons why hybrids are more fuel efficient in urban areas) across the board. Every time I'm stopped at the lights/traffic jams I see fuel economy dropping by 0.1 mpg every 30 secs or so. Do I switch off? (in to Park etc. then panic as the lights turn green to fire up again) or just burn fuel (in drive of course )? Such electronic systems have already been developed so implementation should be straightforward.

Cheers,

 

[Dieselman]

A better way forward, imho, is for Mercedes (and other car manufacturers) to introduce automatic stop/start mechanisms (which is one of the significant reasons why hybrids are more fuel efficient in urban areas) across the board. Every time I'm stopped at the lights/traffic jams I see fuel economy dropping by 0.1 mpg every 30 secs or so. Do I switch off? (in to Park etc. then panic as the lights turn green to fire up again) or just burn fuel (in drive of course )? Such electronic systems have already been developed so implementation should be straightforward.

Cheers,

Good point.

Fiat had a city mode on cars 20 years ago but nobody used it so they dropped it. It did exactly what you suggest, and Citroen have a prototype elctric flyweel to do the same ting and provide accelleration boosting, but they don't bill it as a hybrid.

 

[hawk20]

The only real reason for buying a hybrid is to avoid (London) congestion charges (not me as I use the train).
Cheers,

Very interesting posting most of which I agree with. Just want to pick up on this one bit quoted above.

London congestion charge is but one gain.
Residents parking permits in Richmiond are treble the cost for band G cars and this idea is spreading to other boroughs.
Business tax on an ML is 35% but on a Lexus RX400hybrid is only 22% because its Co2 emissions are band F and the ML is now band G.
Strong rumours that road pricing when it comes will vary depending on the CO2 band.
In addition the vehicle excise duty is higher on band G and is likely to go on rising whoever wins the next election.

 

[Dryce]

A better way forward, imho, is for Mercedes (and other car manufacturers) to introduce automatic stop/start mechanisms (which is one of the significant reasons why hybrids are more fuel efficient in urban areas) across the board.

ISTR VW used to sell a Golf with this back in the late eighties.

Why are these systems so rare?

 

[hawk20]

ISTR VW used to sell a Golf with this back in the late eighties.

Why are these systems so rare?

I read somewhere it depends how often you stop and start. If you have one stop and a long wait before the restart it is fine. If a real nose to tail and lots of stop start, then the energy needed for endless restarting can exceed the energy saved while stopped. Something like that!