Indicators do you use them or not?

[219]

People are talking about other vehicles seeing your indication.. What about human vehicles - pedestrians! Also motorbikes and cyclists..

I agree - I used the phrase 'other road users' in my post above : this includes pedestrians etc .

Indicating "always" is a good habit and is the only way. This doesn't breed complacancy, it is an alert to everything of what your 2, tonnes of fast moving metal (or more in my case sometimes) is about to do

Sorry , don't agree . "Always' indicating takes at least some of the thought out of the process and when the signal is not required it is an unneccessary action , just like the 1-2-3-4 .....4-3-2-1 gearchanges taught by driving schools to novice drivers .

No signal at all is preferable to a wrong signal .

When teaching a child to cross the road do you tell them to look both ways only if they think there may be something coming

When I cross the road I always look both ways.. not just when I think there may be something coming

That argument does not work - you HAVE to look to see if anything is coming . You also have THREE checks as part of the system to consider whether a signal might be required ( the system for motorcyclists even has an additional 'life saver' rear observation between features 5 & 6 ) , so we do teach to Look , Look LOOK - ALL THE TIME . You can also trafficate out of sequence if a vehicle appears into view part way through the system .

To have a routine of indicating only when you've had a good look around is fatuous. What if you forget.. The should I, shouldn't I habit could cost someone their life IMHO.

When you perfect 'the system of car control' into a routine , you will NEVER forget . On the contrary to what you suggest , always looking and always considering SAVES lives : it has been proven in the accident statistics for police advanced drivers which reduced many times over after advanced driver training was first introduced at Hendon . It is also recognised by insurance companies in the reduced premiums offered to advanced drivers .

I KNOW this will induce some replies and more debate, but isn't that why most of us bother to offer our input anyway

Always a good thing , look forward to it .

Be safe .

 

[ringway]

I agree - I used the phrase 'other road users' in my post above : this includes pedestrians etc .







Sorry , don't agree . "Always' indicating takes at least some of the thought out of the process and when the signal is not required it is an unneccessary action , just like the 1-2-3-4 .....4-3-2-1 gearchanges taught by driving schools to novice drivers .

No signal at all is preferable to a wrong signal .



That argument does not work - you HAVE to look to see if anything is coming . You also have THREE checks as part of the system to consider whether a signal might be required ( the system for motorcyclists even has an additional 'life saver' rear observation between features 5 & 6 ) , so we do teach to Look , Look LOOK - ALL THE TIME . You can also trafficate out of sequence if a vehicle appears into view part way through the system .



When you perfect 'the system of car control' into a routine , you will NEVER forget . On the contrary to what you suggest , always looking and always considering SAVES lives : it has been proven in the accident statistics for police advanced drivers which reduced many times over after advanced driver training was first introduced at Hendon . It is also recognised by insurance companies in the reduced premiums offered to advanced drivers .



Always a good thing , look forward to it .

Be safe .

Thanks Derek

I'll need some time to mull it all over..

I consider myself (I'm sure most members here are the same) to be a good driver.

Whilst driving I practice relaxed alertness.. I look about me constantly (high mileage eyeballs) and like to think I know all that is happening.

Indicating always, was instilled in me from day one and I can't just get my head around the contrary argument...

I'm sure it'll rumble on from here..

Regards

Paul.

 

[robert.saunders]

Strange; when out with Traffic plod, during the whole 11-hour shift, the driver only used the indicator maybe a handful of times, quite rarely I noted

Just an observation

 

[scumbag]

well I need to mention something.

up here, even if you do indicate your intention, say left at a roundabout, and you see traffic heading to the roundabout from the right, and you stop instead of racing across in front, the persons coming from the right, still stop and look at you.

they also have a habit of driving at a reasonable speed through town, say 20-25mph, and they see someone waiting to cross the road, they stop to let them cross, not looking at either oncoming traffic or the amount of cars in the road. not only are they oblivous to the rest of the world, they are also not aware that others may not have all the time on the world to get to the ferry, trains, doctors, hospital etc.

so even signalling your intentions round here, has no effect.

 

[flango]

Top advice from Pontoneer and strange we are from very similar backgrounds I too passed my test 4 days after my 17th Birthday, was an IAM member at 18, passed my HGV test at 21 and was sat in a ford works rally car at the age of 23. I then went on to take the civilian version of the police class 1 and am also Rospa member. I also hope to be involved with writing the new version of Roadcraft that will be on the table shortly.

My professional interests include consultancy to manufacturers rally and race teams and as an independent examiner for various high speed & performance driving courses and race driver instructor for red letter day events and the like, so I too as pontoneer feel well qualified to speak on the subject.

 

[flango]

Strange; when out with Traffic plod, during the whole 11-hour shift, the driver only used the indicator maybe a handful of times, quite rarely I noted

Just an observation

Think that statement from Robert says it all?

Watch a few programmes like Traffic Cops or Roadwars, and see how often they don't use them, if you buy a used traffic car it certainly wont have worn out indicators

 

[kwakdonut]

A personal annoyance of mine (& as I get older I find I have many) are some modern cars which have combined round rear lights with brake lights with the indicator sitting in the centre. With the brake light on , the indicator housed in the centre (which isn't as bright) is almost impossible to see. A clear case of fashion coming before function I think.

Don't agree I'm afraid - Brake lights are 21w, Indicators are 21w - so how can you not see them? I imagine you are talking about cars like the current model Passat etc

 

[215m3]

its bloody daft to say if no one is there then dont bother, half the point of indicators is to indicate to other road users you cant see what your up too, just cos you haven't seen anyone it dont mean they are not there,

If you have not seen them it could be that your observation is not as widespread as it should be.

If i approach a junction where tere is a blind bend etc after mind i will cover the indicator just in case.

 

[215m3]

Why wouldn't you indicate if manoeuvering to overtake a stationary vehicle?

Because your road positioning should make it clearly obvious to road users behind and in front of you.

if i see a parked vehicle on my side of the road in the distance when i'm about 100-150m from it, if nothing is coming the other way i will move out and straddle the centre line 75% in the other. I then get a clear vision ahead. If anything appears ahead i move back over, if not i clearly over take the parked vehicle.

It's better than doing what most do, drive right up to the parked car, stop indicate, then crane their neck to see round the stationary vehicle.

At no time would i be indicating

 

[ringway]

Maybe we should vote on this one

 

[popuptoaster]

its bloody daft to say if no one is there then dont bother, half the point of indicators is to indicate to other road users you cant see what your up too, just cos you haven't seen anyone it dont mean they are not there,

If you have not seen them it could be that your observation is not as widespread as it should be.

If i approach a junction where tere is a blind bend etc after mind i will cover the indicator just in case.

i spent far to many years driving in fear of the police back in my misspent youth not to have pretty good observational skills, but im still not so blindly confidant in my own ability i assume i see EVERYthing, i'd rather assume i didn't notice something, use my indicators and possibly avoid an accident, also if i do indicate and someone rams my lovely old classic Mercedes it gives me a perfectly valid excuse to get out and wallop them them right on the snozz for not looking where they were going.

 

[raymont]

its bloody daft to say if no one is there then dont bother, half the point of indicators is to indicate to other road users you cant see what your up too, just cos you haven't seen anyone it dont mean they are not there,

If you have not seen them it could be that your observation is not as widespread as it should be.

If i approach a junction where tere is a blind bend etc after mind i will cover the indicator just in case.

Can you guarantee absolutely and with no chance of error that you have not failed to see another road user?

What about the situation that someone with 100% ability ( I've yet to meet this superdriver with full time 360 degree xray vision ( needed to see through vehicle pillars and behind street furniture etc.)) to see other road users decides there is no-one there, and is correct, and decides not to signal. But one second later someone appears where he just looked.

Seems to me it's a no brainer, you signal. You might have missed something.

 

[215m3]

its bloody daft to say if no one is there then dont bother, half the point of indicators is to indicate to other road users you cant see what your up too, just cos you haven't seen anyone it dont mean they are not there,


i spent far to many years driving in fear of the police back in my misspent youth not to have pretty good observational skills, but im still not so blindly confidant in my own ability i assume i see EVERYthing, i'd rather assume i didn't notice something, use my indicators and possibly avoid an accident, also if i do indicate and someone rams my lovely old classic Mercedes it gives me a perfectly valid excuse to get out and wallop them them right on the snozz for not looking where they were going.

It's not daft, it just means you need to improve you observation and antisipation.

The indicators are not evidence enough to get someone off the hook of an accident.

If you are waiting in a side lane to pull out onto another road. A vehicle approaches on this main road with the indicator on which appears to be turning into the lane you are waiting in. You pull out and this car T-bones you. YOU are in the wrong for pulling out and NOT the person with the indicator on.

They still have right of way regardless or not of whether the indicator is on or not.

 

[215m3]

its bloody daft to say if no one is there then dont bother, half the point of indicators is to indicate to other road users you cant see what your up too, just cos you haven't seen anyone it dont mean they are not there,



Can you guarantee absolutely and with no chance of error that you have not failed to see another road user?

What about the situation that someone with 100% ability ( I've yet to meet this superdriver with full time 360 degree xray vision ( needed to see through vehicle pillars and behind street furniture etc.)) to see other road users decides there is no-one there, and is correct, and decides not to signal. But one second later someone appears where he just looked.

Seems to me it's a no brainer, you signal. You might have missed something.

the other side to indicating all the time is you then become trained to indicate at every manouvre and your awareness drops.

'Hey i put my indicator on so i'm fine'

sorry not the case.

We can all do with improving our vision, including me. We all make mistakes, but just because you have a junction coming up 200m ahead, i don't start looking at 10m i'm looking all the way up to the junction.

 

[219]

Can you guarantee absolutely and with no chance of error that you have not failed to see another road user?

What about the situation that someone with 100% ability ( I've yet to meet this superdriver with full time 360 degree xray vision ( needed to see through vehicle pillars and behind street furniture etc.)) to see other road users decides there is no-one there, and is correct, and decides not to signal. But one second later someone appears where he just looked.

Seems to me it's a no brainer, you signal. You might have missed something.

That was the point in my comment above on basing my driving plan on " What I can see , what I cannot see , and the circumstances I can reasonably expect to develop " .

By realising there is an area where you do not have clear visibility , you learn to anticipate the possibility that someone might be there - and make allowances for that possibility . This does not mean that you signal for someone who isn't there , but by keeping a watchful eye you are ready for them and , quite often , I may trafficate out of sequence for someone who appears suddenly ; remember too , they also have an equal duty to be looking out for you .

The sorts of circumstances where visibility is reduced tends to be where you are coming out of a side road onto a main road : in that situation you are giving way to other traffic so it makes no difference to them what direction you are turnng in or whether you are signalling or not .

One circumstance I often signal irrespective of whether anyone is in view behind is on the approach to my own home : I live by the side of a fast 'A' road and my house is less than 100 yds from a fairly sharp bend . Approaching from the West , I come around a left hand bend and my house is on the right almost immediately afterwards : if I have to wait because of oncoming traffic for any length of time there is a strong possibility of something coming up fast behind and only seeing me at the last minute : I also don't know whether or not there is going to be oncoming traffic until I round the bend so I always trafficate on the approach because of " what I cannot see , and circumstances I can reasonably expect to develop " . Whilst waiting , my wheels are pointed straight ahead so that if I get shunted from behind I do not steer into oncoming traffc , and I am sitting in drive ready to floor it if something looks like not stopping !

There is also a road junction on the right immediately after my house - over the years I have lived here there have been a couple of crashes where people waiting to turn right have been rear-ended , so my fears in this circumstance are well justified .

Advanced driving is not black and white : there are grey areas and exceptions to every rule , you do have to be flexible .

 

[stevesey]

the other side to indicating all the time is you then become trained to indicate at every manouvre and your awareness drops.

Isn't that a slightly flawed arguement - as it could be applied to a lot of driving practices. You'd have to be very lax just to indicate without any thought process/awareness around it - at a minimum there is when to indicate, which depends on what you have observed around you.

Personally I'm in the always indicate camp, unless my routine of observation and assesment suggests there is a reason not to (such as the indication being ambigious - although those situations often result in a re-assement of the manouvre as well).

 

[215m3]

Isn't that a slightly flawed arguement - as it could be applied to a lot of driving practices. You'd have to be very lax just to indicate without any thought process/awareness around it - at a minimum there is when to indicate, which depends on what you have observed around you.

Personally I'm in the always indicate camp, unless my routine of observation and assesment suggests there is a reason not to (such as the indication being ambigious - although those situations often result in a re-assement of the manouvre as well).

Assessment is constant, not just at a junction etc. If there is nothing around i won't, but am always ready to indicate if something does appear that will benefit.

You also have to be aware that an indicator is only really noticed after the 4th flash(some stat i remember seeing somewhere), so even if the car sees you and you have your indicator already on, if they catch sight of you, it may only be when the indicator flash is 'off' so to them at appears that you have not got the indicator on.

There are so many vairables, but i prefer to assess every situation rather than put the indicator on just for the sack of it.

 

[flango]

Below is a question from an actual exam paper for IAM, ROSPA, Advanced Driver instructors.

5. Most road users believe the Highway Code demands indicators to be used in all circumstances. Explain how Roadcraft and the Highway Code agree when NOT to use indicators?

The answer to this has been covered in more than enough detail by me, Pontoneer and 215m3.

So the answer to the OP is no you do not have to use your indicators all the time. Use them unecesscarily on a IAM, ROPSA, TPO or EDA test and you will fail. I have failed people for this where the use of the indicator was down right dangerous.

A lot of time effort and training goes into becoming an instructor, and each one has to prove his skills many times by practical driving assessments and written exams. If anyone is in doubt to what we go through check out sites like these http://www.cadar-tutors.org/ scroll to the bottom and look through the modules and don't forget we are retested every 3 years. How many people out there would pass the standard driving test again, let alone the advanced one.

 

[CrysAk]

use mine all the time ...

dont understand why people are so reluctant to use them when "they dont need to" or when its"clear not to use them"

by the time you take a look around and take into consideration if its worth using them or not, you could of just used them!!!!

seriously dont see the upside to not using them, its not like its much / any effort and should be 2nd nature to turning the steering wheel

 

[Swiss Toni]

dont understand why people are so reluctant to use them when "they dont need to" or when its"clear not to use them"

by the time you take a look around and take into consideration if its worth using them or not, you could of just used them!!!!

seriously dont see the upside to not using them, its not like its much / any effort and should be 2nd nature to turning the steering wheel

flanaia1 explains why above.

It shows whether you are actually concentrating on your driving and aware of other road users or just in your own little dream world...

If an Advanced Instructor asks "Why did you just indicate?" you'd better know who it was you were indicating to - if they were a pedestrian the colour of their clothes, if another driver, the colour of their vehicle...