Is it worth trying a petrol additive?

[E55BOF]

TBH, what I think we have here is a combination of the Placebo Effect and Snake Oil.

 

[PunkyB]

I can't be ****d either because as I say it's a debate that will rage on forevermore. Maybe a couple of people go try it and see what they think? The science behind what's shown in the video is undeniable I guess to a point, and there are, as said, many many variables to what engines would respond well to the additive and which won't. End of the day just keep your tenner in your pocket if your certain it's snake oil. A lot of these things that we call snake oil DO clean injectors and stuff over time, the benefits may be almost negligible though in many cases.

 

[E55BOF]

There isn't any science in the video; it's a marketing blurb. Think about it; if you get 'more complete combustion', then more of the fuel's energy will be released, so more power will be generated. Where does that go?

Reading some of the reviews, it looks as though it may be an octane booster, just like Millers, Redex and all the others. Dosage advice is the same utterly useless 'one bottle per tank', too; is that a 37 litre Kia tank, or an 80 litre E-class tank, then?

In fact, I'm inclined to think it is an octane booster, and those aren't snake oil; they work, and are added to their fuels by the suppliers. Unless octane booster additives somehow improve fuel atomisation, that claim is pure BS, but at least it differentiates theirs from the others.

I only use V-Power fuels, so I'll spend my tenner on that, I think. Try filling up with V-power or Tesco Momentum, and see if you get the same effect.

 

[markjay]

Aa a regular Shell V-Power user, my question is whether Liqui Moly can do better than Shell - I am assuming that Shell put into V-Power everything they know, and it would be rather embarrassing for them if their best fuel can be easily improved by an additive.

I am not denying the benefits of fuel additives in general, I am just wondering if the fuel I use - Shell V-Power - can actually be improved by an additive.

 

[GeeJayW]

I can't be ****d either because as I say it's a debate that will rage on forevermore. Maybe a couple of people go try it and see what they think? The science behind what's shown in the video is undeniable I guess to a point, and there are, as said, many many variables to what engines would respond well to the additive and which won't. End of the day just keep your tenner in your pocket if your certain it's snake oil. A lot of these things that we call snake oil DO clean injectors and stuff over time, the benefits may be almost negligible though in many cases.

If you want to spend a tenner to put more additive into your fuel and are happy that it’s money well spent, hey no worries. No skin off my nose. Just be aware that having too much additive can create it’s own problems. More isn’t always better, so just be careful not to overdose. The blurb from Liqui-Moly says the treatment is for 70-litres.

Out of interest, do you have even the remotest clue as to how much actual scientific and engineering effort is put into developing and testing fuel products by the oil companies?

 

[GeeJayW]

Aa a regular Shell V-Power user, my question is whether Liqui Moly can do better than Shell - I am assuming that Shell put into V-Power everything they know, and it would be rather embarrassing for them if their best fuel can be easily improved by an additive.

I am not denying the benefits of fuel additives in general, I am just wondering if the fuel I use - Shell V-Power - can actually be improved by an additive.

I doubt very much if there is significant room for improvement on V-Power.

 

[DSM10000]

I doubt very much if there is significant room for improvement on V-Power.

Jet A1 or the 100 Octane low lead for our aircraft

 

[E55BOF]

Do you have misfuelling-proof nozzles for those as well?

 

[DSM10000]

Do you have misfuelling-proof nozzles for those as well?

Nah. Someone else tops off the tanks on return to base

 

[E55BOF]

I meant light aviation in general, not you personally.

 

[DSM10000]

I meant light aviation in general, not you personally.

I don't run on either of those fuels,

Or have I missed the point entirely?
More than possible after an excellent lunch and some additional sampling of the current wine stocks

Most light aircraft have fairly crude fuel filer caps that simply twist on and off. Occasionally they may have a key lock.

Jet A1 I believe is fuelled via a specific safety nozzle that prevents flow until the mechanical contacts are secured and locked.

Both operations are also carried out with earthing cables connected first.

 

[markjay]

I don't run on either of those fuels,

Or have I missed the point entirely?

It also works the other way around: you can fuel a lorry with Whiskey - it certainly fooled Basil Radford.

 

[DSM10000]

One edition of I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue had the line below spoken by Humph...

"Jesus walked on water but Barry Cryer runs on lager"

 

[PunkyB]

I already use Shell V-Power 99 Octane, and that's with an engine that can run on 91 and I don't have a clue how Mercedes-Benz mapped that Siemens ECU but I doubt I get any timing advance past 95 because that's probably where they set it. I don't think we'll see anything better than Shell V power now on these shores, petrol is going away and that's a fact. The crossover point of hybrids and range extenders don't really give a shit about fuel quality, who needs to worry about a little advancement on timing when you have the instant power of an electric motor to help you along.

In fact these engines probably will be happy with crappy fuel, the Prius uses either an Atkinson or Miller cycle I can't remember.

I use V-power for it's detergent and just in case the standard map is allowed to knock on the door (excuse the pun) of pushing the envelope. Xentry says it's not been restricted but that probably just means they know it's being sold in a market where 95RON is standard.

RON at least we have a guarantee of what it is, it's ISO standard is on the pump , we know that Shell 99 will resist going kaboom before it should over standard 95. We know many engines can take advantage of this or NEED this.

Yes the additives are a grey area, no I don't know naff all about the engineering behind hydrocarbons and fuels. I do know that what we burn though is the vapour of the fuel not the liquid and we don't want any liquid fuel being burned poorly and we certainly don't want unburned fuel reaching the precious metals in the cats. Yeah that liqui moly video is marketing bunpf, but it all is!! Shell wants average Joe to think that V-power is what puts Hamilton around a track.

Would a reputable German company lie and sell a product that was not capable of achieving what it claimed?......... Oh shit yeah the emissions scandal... but you get my point.

Next we'll start arguing over which type of fossilised dinosaur produces the best oils

Have any of you actually TRIED IT?

 

[markjay]

Would a reputable German company lie and sell a product that was not capable of achieving what it claimed?.........

I hold Liqui Moly in high regard, since using their MoS2 engine oil additive in the eighties and nineties.

And I am a strong believer in fuel additives, been using Redex for many years.

However, I do not believe that fuel additives can improve premium fuels, that already contain an additives pack developed by the fuel producer.

I stopped adding Redex when I started using Shell V-Power and BP Ultimate.

Liqui Moly are not lying, and I am sure that their product works as advertised - when added to regular fuel.

Have any of you actually TRIED IT?

No. But I have used Redex for many years (with regular fuel). When removing the injectors rail on my car that did 40,000 miles on petrol with Redex, the injectors were super clean - in fact they looked new. That's all the proof I needed - fuel additives do work.

 

[PunkyB]

Thanks for coming to my aid, there's just a lot of people that are saying it's nothing but snake-oil. I think they are a great brand, I haven't even heard my timing chain since I used one of their oil additives and my oil temps are always lower

 

[E55BOF]

I don't run on either of those fuels,

Or have I missed the point entirely?
More than possible after an excellent lunch and some additional sampling of the current wine stocks

Most light aircraft have fairly crude fuel filer caps that simply twist on and off. Occasionally they may have a key lock.

Jet A1 I believe is fuelled via a specific safety nozzle that prevents flow until the mechanical contacts are secured and locked.

Both operations are also carried out with earthing cables connected first.

I was referring to the fact that Jet A1 is kerosene and 100 0ctane is petrol, that's all; two different fuels, like diesel and petrol for cars.

Thanks for coming to my aid, there's just a lot of people that are saying it's nothing but snake-oil. I think they are a great brand, I haven't even heard my timing chain since I used one of their oil additives and my oil temps are always lower

I made no reference to anything made by Liqui Moly other than their petrol additive. I accept that it's probably an octane booster, but if you are adding it to V-Power and believe that you are getting any benefit, well, see posts #79 and #81.

Does the W169 have an oil temperature readout? My CLS63 does, but I've never had it on any other MB; the M113s never even had an oil pressure sender, just the switch to light the light to tell you your engine's toast...

 

[geoffus]

No. But I have used Redex for many years (with regular fuel). When removing the injectors rail on my car that did 40,000 miles on petrol with Redex, the injectors were super clean - in fact they looked new. That's all the proof I needed - fuel additives do work.

You would expect it to be clean anyway after just 40,000 miles, ordinary Tesco fuel still contains cleaning properties, isn’t that part of the fuel standard ?

since I used one of their oil additives and my oil temps are always lower

What oil additive has Mercedes recommend for their engines ?

 

[PunkyB]

Speet-Tec isn't an octane booster, this has been made clear from the start! So could it contain a chemical that v-power doesn't or a higher amount..... that would be an aid to providing a better flame front or burn.......possibly? I think this is why their claim is basically just mid range acceleration especially under partial load. At WOT the combustion chamber should seriously be vaporising anything anyway hence why there's probably no power gain there

Yes W169 has an oil tempreature sensor, can be accessed by the service menu by having the main display set to odometer on accessories key position then pushing trip reset three times before going for ignition. Will also allow access to the literal service/maintenance logs, an option to disable ABS/ESP/CBC/TPMS all of it for rolling road testing. Sadly that's the only way to turn the ESP off on a W169 and the vehicle is then speed restricted to about 70MPH. Some other stuff there too, what engine code you have and it's ECU/Control unit firmware revisions. I heard something about Mercedes refusing to use some kind of oil sensor before, but not sure what one. Are they not funny about deadlocks too?

As for what oil additives they recommend, they don't, they will usually tell you never to use any additives unless it's for a specific climate or for a designated market where the fuel may be different, and it will be one of THEIR additives. Liqui Moly is good, but ever seen Lucas Heavy Duty Oil stabiliser? that stuff is REVERED by some people and you can watch youtube videos of actual real demonstrations on lawnmower engines etc, that stuff literally stays on stuff like slime and really minimises wear.

People are always ready to jump on the word additive because they assumed that all those thousands of hours of bench testing the manufacturer must be 100% correct in everything and nothing could improve on the consumables they tell you to use, but its not true. Especially if your engine is old, tired or dirty. My Mercedes is 11 years old, some people on here will have older ones. Oil tech has moved on in that time and there COULD be something that causes less wear, heat and friction available that would benefit and old tired motor. I used to use 0w20 in my Honda D series, an engine Honda said 20 years ago needed 5w30. Ran way, way better on the 0w20

 

[GeeJayW]

^^ you’re clearly convinced of the merits of third party additives.

The reality is that very few (if any) of them have achieved any of the ASTM, SAE, DIN, ACEA or manufacturer approvals. At least some lubricant additives that ‘cling on’ actually compromise piston cleanliness, cause sticking piston rings, increased under-crown deposits resulting in higher crown temperature, and other cleanliness issues in the engine.

Fuel additives are already included in fuels in the UK and in general inlet valve deposits aren’t much of an issue here for port injected engines. Similarly fuel injector deposits are typically well controlled. The occasional tankful of V-Power, Ultimate or whatever Esso’s premium gasoline, will do a good job of cleaning. When things are clean, they are clean. No additive can do cleaner than clean.

On the mid-range acceleration (responsiveness) improvements claimed by Liqui-Moly; they should be measurable, though I understand why Liqui-Moly won’t publish actual figures because these would then become a stick to beat them with. In my experience, some benefits in responsiveness are achievable through base fuel formulation, but not really via additives.

If you can feel the difference and are happy to pay a tenner/tank for that on top of what you’re paying for V-Power, well that’s fine. Your car, your wallet.

As for your point about which dinosaur? You do know that crude oil properties differ quite significantly depending on where they come from or when it was formed and that the differences do have an impact on the products that can be made from a particular crude?