Lorrys overtaking each other on Dual Carriageways

[rf065]

Secondly although there are many more cars than HGV's on our motorways and dual carriageways it remains that they were actually built for commercial reasons. It's just more cost efficient to the country to have them than not.

They were built to relieve congestion not for commercial reasons. The very first m/way was the Preston Bypass built for tourists travelling to Blackpool & the Lake District. When the first m/ways were being talked about, I suspect the majority of our freight used the railways or barges, it was only the advent of a m/way system and the many rail strikes that took place at the time that convinced hauliers to use the new roads instead. But nice too see you think they were built for you.

Russ

 

[Deleted member 113659]

Not so sure about some of the calcs above.

If one of these HGV’s were parked up and you walked passed it at 1mph (very slow I’ll admit) I’d not take 3-4 minutes to walk the length.

 

[Quackers]

They were built to relieve congestion not for commercial reasons. The very first m/way was the Preston Bypass built for tourists travelling to Blackpool & the Lake District. When the first m/ways were being talked about, I suspect the majority of our freight used the railways or barges, it was only the advent of a m/way system and the many rail strikes that took place at the time that convinced hauliers to use the new roads instead. But nice too see you think they were built for you.

Russ

I think successive governments have concentrated much more on commerce with regard to the building of motorways than when they built the Preston by-pass, which was a relief road and later became known as the first motorway.
But maybe I'm wrong.
And I don't think they were built for me - that's a silly over-simplification. I think they were built for commercial reasons.

 

[st13phil]

Not so sure about some of the calcs above.

Ant, my calc's were based on "safe" following distances of 1.5 to 2 second gaps, so it's not just the 20m length of the truck (and there are two truck lengths to take into account, not one).

 

[rockits]

So if we are saying in real terms a pass can take maybe 5 mins travelling 1mph difference at best then this gives an approx gain of maybe 40m in 5 mins. This equates to 480m in an hour or 0.3mph. So in an hour you have gained....wait for it....less than a third of a mile. Or got to your 300 mile destination 2 mins quicker.

It is hard to work this out in my head on the mobile but it seems right!

If you add up the cost to the atmosphere in CO2 emissions for the lorry overtaking due to no slipstream & the cost of cars having to brake, decelerate then accelerate it seems the hidden underlying impact is quite substantial & not worth the gain to the overtaking lorry. This is without the risk involved in performing this manoeuvre. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

Road trains for all vehicles (cars included) on M-ways seems the only logical way forward.

I may have my calcs wrong BTW so happy to be corrected. Doesn't seem worth it does it?

I am not anti-HGV btw & realise it is a very difficult & important job. I have only ever driven a 7.5t truck with tail lift & was amazed how much you need to (& should do!) concentrate at all times.

The long queue of commercial HGV's and the like just look so much like a train it might as well be one. The drivers could concentrate less on multiple tasks & focus better concentration on the ones that could matter the most.

Cue to avalanche of responses!!!...........

 

[Quackers]

So you'd rather trains ran on the road? Or join all the trucks together and let the first driver pull the rest?
You're only looking at the bad cases here. An empty HGV overtaking a loaded HGV up an incline may take as little as 10 seconds.
Bear in mind that all these trucks nowadays have cruise control and both drivers would rather leave that alone wherever possible.
Do you have any idea what it's like to be travelling at top speed in a 44 tonne artic and getting nearer and nearer to the truck in front with your foot full to the floor because you know that in 200 yards where the road inclines upwards sharply your speed is going to fall off at a rate of knots that may result in two gear changes just so you can maintain 30 mph having started off at almost 60mph?
You have to time it and the last thing you want to do is brake because that means you'll be doing nearer 20 mph when you get to the top of the hill.

 

[Deleted member 65149]

I'm on my move not a laptop or desktop with no access to pen or paper but it is a mathematical calculation is it not for how long it would take a lorry to pass another lorry while going 1mph faster if you had one at 59mph & one at 60mph.

The slower one would be doing 1mph less so if you divided the 60mph guys 1 mile or approx 1600m by 60 then divide by 60 again he would moving faster by about 0.5m per sec. So a pass of a say a 20m lorry would take about 40 secs plus a smidge either side of the manoeuvre start & finish.

Have I got that about right? So why does it take several minutes or longer for these passes to take place even at 1mph difference?

Good mental maths. So what we’re saying is that a 1mph speed difference should theoretically lead to it taking about 1 minute for the overtake process. That seems like an eternity when stuck behind at 15 mph less than the speed you want. It FEELS like several minutes, when it’s actually far less. And of course it doesn’t mean your journey will take an extra minute, you are still moving. You really only lose a few seconds.

But of course it’s rarely this straightforward. Inevitably there’s more than one lorry to pass (why do they have to drive so close to each other?) so the time spent out in the next lane gets multiplied many fold. And on a longer journey the situation can arise many times.

And then there are the cars that only want to drive at 60mph on a NSL road (their choice). They too get held up by the slowly overtaking lorries, and eventually become the issue themselves thereby exacerbating the hold up for faster traffic. And there are the cars that only want to drive at 61mph and take that now interminable minute to pass, followed by those wanting to drive at 62mph, and so on. So the minute the lorries have taken to overtake really does finish up as forever.

We can see the big lorries in the outside lane from way back, so we know whenever they’re holding us up. But we’re only alerted to cars causing the same issues when we’re close behind and can see. So lorries get the majority of the blame, almost certainly unreasonably. Perhaps we all have a part to play.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

I'm on my move not a laptop or desktop with no access to pen or paper but it is a mathematical calculation is it not for how long it would take a lorry to pass another lorry while going 1mph faster if you had one at 59mph & one at 60mph.

Are you stuck behind an overtaking lorry on the A1?

 

[rockits]

I think most need to shoulder some blame. I work hard as I'm sure many on here do also many HGV drivers to plan well in advanced any manoeuvres. I will go faster to over take if I know a faster car behind will be need to slow or brake if not. I haven't pulled out infront of it btw but have anticipated their speed & know if I increase my speed slightly I can complete my manoeuvre without them need to adjust their speed at all. I will also slow down a smidge to let faster cars pass first before pulling out as that would cause them to slow or brake hard. Some people are idiots, stupid or just don't care about other people....or are blissfully ignorantly unaware.

Many don't and wouldn't even dream of doing this. These are some of the issues as most don't think or consider anyone else. The terrible lane discipline is another issue that causes massive knock on problems. All of these smaller issues combine to total a very big final combined impact. No one thing is the issue.

We could have more lanes but as we know that lane discipline is still an issue so many lanes are often free or less condensed than they should be. However just thinking about that this lane indiscipline is actually helping HGV's as these cars should be in lanes 1 or 2 but are in lanes 2 or 3 or 4 when there. If we improve lane discipline then this will cause more congestion for the inner lanes. You can't win. Maybe the best way is intelligent flexible use of all lanes for both overtaking & undertaking with worry of prosecution even though undertaking seems not strictly illegal.

We need some intelligence for that though!

 

[rockits]

Are you stuck behind an overtaking lorry on the A1?

Sorry....it should have said mobile! Not move!! Stupid mobile/move/whatever!!!

 

[Quackers]

Plus one for lane discipline in general.
A few years ago a few mates and I did a motor cycle trip to Spain and whilst there we covered about 2000 miles.
One thing that stuck out miles was their superior lane discipline. It was astounding how disciplined the Spaniards were and fair play to them for that.
It is something routinely lacked in this country.

 

[Lennox]

Plus one for lane discipline in general.
A few years ago a few mates and I did a motor cycle trip to Spain and whilst there we covered about 2000 miles.
One thing that stuck out miles was their superior lane discipline. It was astounding how disciplined the Spaniards were and fair play to them for that.
It is something routinely lacked in this country.

Especially the M8! It has an inside lane for over/under taking.

Sent from my Huawei note 8 using my fingers

 

[Quackers]

Especially the M8! It has an inside lane for over/under taking.

Sent from my Huawei note 8 using my fingers

Stretches of the M8 are weird! Very odd for a couple of miles.

 

[Wolfie1]

At least in england you have 3 lane motorways! Whenever im driving up from my brothers in wiltshire you get on at a good speed quite happily cruising at 80 mph as soon as you hit scotland and into 2 lanes progress is sooooo slow, you are constantly down to 55 and then as soon as your speed up again your back down again!

 

[Petrol Pete]

It has been said here already , but sometimes its just pure bad driving (motorway) by someone in a car who is going slow enough in lane 1 to force a HGV to move into lane 2 That to me is pure ignorance, almost as bad as the middle lane hogger.

If you have all the time in the world to get to your destination, go the scenic route and stay off the motorway...and by the way, having an HGV 20ft in front of you and another 20ft behind as you cruise along in your Nissan Micra can only end in tears (for you and your relatives) if the front one stands on his brakes (light load maybe) and the one behind you takes a second to stand on his brakes (heavy load ?) and the overtaking HVG in lane 2 leaves you no where to go...show some imagination and speed up a little.

 

[mat8n]

Basically people in cars want to get past because their vehicle is faster. They are at work or going to and from work or going on holiday etc etc and they'll get there quicker than the the slower vehicle... Am I correct in thinking this?

Where as the truck driver wants to get past in the faster vehicle because they are at work doing their job or trying to get home because they've been away for days or weeks at a time sleeping in their cabs after delivering our produce... Because they'll get there quicker than the slower vehicle.

Yes it's an awful situation for us car drivers!

Yes a lot of truck drivers are knobs.
A lot of cyclists, car drivers and motorcyclists are knobs.

 

[Deleted96908]

I didn't know about the security of Apple pay so I stand corrected on that one.

My point still stands for regular contactless cards though.

As a general rule though, if our lives are so time poor we begrduge the few seconds of a pin then there's something wrong somewhere.

We have no time to stand and stare and all that.

IMO @Yugguy makes a very valid point in the Apple Pay thread.

What is this fascination with speed and time saving? Given we are all so keen to save a few seconds here and there, why we are on the other hand, more than willing to waste our lives away watching some soppy soap on TV?

.

 

[E55BOF]

Yes a lot of truck drivers are knobs.
A lot of cyclists, car drivers and motorcyclists are knobs.

I can't argue with that (though I doubt that motorcycles struggling to complete an overtaking manoeuvre have held up many drivers on a motorway). We're all knobs at least occasionally...

I don't think vehicles being faster has much to do with overtaking as a motivation, though. It's more the case that few if any people drive on motorways for pleasure; it is a means to an end - getting to a destination - that we seek to achieve as soon as possible. On a clear motorway, the limiting factor in the case of lorries is generally the maximum achievable speed of the vehicle; in the case of cars it is nearly always the ability of the driver (until, of course, your speed is such that fear of the legal consequences if caught becomes that limiting factor).

 

[Crickleymal]

Yea but its up to each individual police force to set their limits, i have called up the local police and asked this very question and the answer i got was “I cant tell you that”

Oh I agree but I did the calculations yesterday. If you were cruising at 50mph and the spped cameras were 2 miles apart then zipping up to 60 for 15 seconds only puts your average speed up to 51mph. Not enough to get you booked I'm sure.

 

[gr1nch]

I have a Hgv licence and have driven stgo class heavy haulage for a short time.
I also drive very large mobile Cranes, the largest you can get.

Believe me, when you are driving 5-600 miles in that day limited to either 56mph in the case of a truck or around 40mph in a crane, you do not sit behind another vehicle going 1-2mph slower, neither do you slow down and loose momentum as has been said, in the crane it takes about 3 miles to get up to full speed!

So that 10-15 minutes might be a nightmare for you(and me if I'm in my car) but the flip side is it will save the driver maybe half an hour out of his driving time, if he does this 3-4 times a day he's saved about 2 hours driving /distance.

It's a big thing being on tachograph or having 2 days to get somewhere in a crane.

If one lorry overtaking another, however slowly, is only holding up one or two cars, that's fair enough, their time is no more valuable than your time. But if those two lorries are holding up a whole line of traffic, then that's a different matter - it's multiplying the 15 minutes you mentioned by the number of occupants in these vehicles. Consideration should apply.

A very similar situation to the slow overtaking issue happens around here in agricultural Lincolnshire, with comparatively slow tractors on single carriageways, often B roads. If the tractor starts to hold up a line of traffic, they tend to pull over, sometimes staying moving, when next possible and let everyone past. Takes a few seconds, but has saved a whole bunch of time for everyone else. They have the awareness. When its a few cars behind them they don't pull out of the way and that's totally fine, the few drivers behind put up with it and overtake themselves where possible, which is not as easy for a whole line of traffic to do. This unwritten (and probably undiscussed) system is just good, community minded, common sense.

We are not very good at the concept of community on the roads, but there should be a greater awareness of it. To help safety, convenience, efficiency and pleasure. After all we share the space: living and working on it.

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