LPG Conversion

[Dazza]

Ok

With the price of petrol going up ive been thinking of LPG. Has anybody done this or know anybody who has.

 

[Shude]

moving to engine section

 

[Steve Chafer]

KPG conversion

there are mixed messegaes:

A year ago the recieved wisom was don't,- but there was little solid reasons given for not doing it. I have a pal who comutes to languedoc each month with a very successful LPG conversion on his 200 E class estate (though he does keep mum about it on the tunnel train)

I do know of an Aston Martin owner who has done the same without mishap

We are on about the 3rd /4th generation LGP so can't think of a reason not to really.

Compared to petrol:
75% less CO, 85% less HC, 40% less NOx, 87% less OZONE.

Compared to diesel:
90% less CO, 90% less HC, 40% less NOx, 90% less PM10.

PM10 (particulates) is the most harmful pollutant. LPG has 90% less PM10 than diesel.

www.greenfuel.org.uk

Steve

 

[BenzComander]

My biggest concern is not the technology, as I feel it is succesfuly proven now.

The concern is you will have about £1500-2000 worth of conversion done, and then the government put the duty up on LPG, as they have done on diesel negating the reason to do the conversion in the forst place.

The price of LPG has been steadily creeping up over the last few years anyway, and if enough people get the conversions done, the bean steelers wont be able to resist it.

Just a thought!!

 

[Shude]

You should check with your stealership/mechanic that they are certified to work on cars with LPG conversions. Also check that your insurance company will still cover you!

The grant fund long since dried up for this so it will cost you £1500-2k for the job. You might lose your spare wheel well in the process depending on the kit and who installs it.

The tax is no longer capped on this fuel so the gov't can push the tax up now if they want, and I have heard/read that this is intended in the not-too-distant...

I know I sound pretty negative but there's only an *eventual* potential fuel-bill saving to be made with LPG as a positive (dispite the reduced emissions which I suppose are also a benefit )

 

[Copiertech]

if the government put up autogas duty you can easily buy a transfer pump and fill your car up off propane bottles for barbeques or house heating. the best quality lpg conversion equipment i have worked with is the omvl dream 21n system. well manufactured components, easy to set up, and retains all the fault diagnosis/limp home mode/ overrun cutout etc of your existing petrol ecu unlikke some other lpg kits.
fit it yourself and just get an lpga registered garage to test it and certify it.

 

[Dieselman]

PM10 (particulates) is the most harmful pollutant. LPG has 90% less PM10 than diesel.


Steve

Please qualify this statement. I would like to know A: why? B: where the information came from and C: have I got news for you.

 

[BTB 500]

if the government put up autogas duty you can easily buy a transfer pump and fill your car up off propane bottles for barbeques or house heating.

Filling up from propane bottles might be more expensive than unleaded though! If I remember right the 6 KG ones I use in my caravan (not sure how far you'd get on one of those?) are about £15 a shot now, they've gone up a lot recently.

 

[Madferrit]

www.greenfuel.org.uk

Using this site that Steve provided, i used the calculator to work out what a conversion would cost of a V Class i'm looking to buy and convert. The figures are like this;

Cost of Conversion £1,650.00 + VAT
Net Cost of Conversion £1,938.75 inc VAT
Petrol Spend PA £2,986.71 per year
LPG Spend PA £1,493.36 per year
Saving PA £1,493.36 per year
Return on Investment 77%
CO2 Saving 1.48 Tonnes
Approved by top 20 insurance companies Yes

Thats based on 15k miles per annum. Sound impressive.

I guess at the moment, with all the uncertainty surrounding the taxing issue it is questionable whether this wil be beneficial. I for one will almost certainly be looking to go down this route, esp as i can see the cost saving.. for the next year or so at least. In the long run, who knows.. maybe veggie oil is the answer!

 

[Madferrit]

In addition to the above link to greenfuel.co.uk the company hasn't been seen very favourably in the lpgforum. Apparently (not confirmed yet) they're a 3rd party company that takes the customers and links them up with an installer, thus charging a fee in the process. Savings can be made on installation if you find someone reputable directly.

LPG Forum (no competition to this forum of course)

 

[Thmsshaun]

I considered this in the past but dont think my mileage would ever justify and would never do it to the AMG.

The main thing that put me off was the not knowing what will happen to the fuel duty. It may be worth looking to buy a car with the system already fitted but then in the current climate I would imagine the choices to be very limited.

I am however considering getting a cheap diesel run around as a Veg oil project car.

and I mean CHEAP AS CHIPS quite literally

Price is currently around 70p a litre duty paid. Duty rate stands at around 27.1ppl

From what I understand all you need to be legal is the following.
Forms 179E and form EX103 from HM Customs & Excise.
edit and i should be able to run a 50/50 mix without modification. i.e pre heaters.
Not sure how frequently your pay though i.e monthly, quarterly etc.

 

[Dieselman]

I considered this in the past but dont think my mileage would ever justify and would never do it to the AMG.

The main thing that put me off was the not knowing what will happen to the fuel duty. It may be worth looking to buy a car with the system already fitted but then in the current climate I would imagine the choices to be very limited.

I am however considering getting a cheap diesel run around as a Veg oil project car.

and I mean CHEAP AS CHIPS quite literally

Price is currently around 70p a litre duty paid. Duty rate stands at around 27.1ppl

From what I understand all you need to be legal is the following.
Forms 179E and form EX103 from HM Customs & Excise.

Not sure how frequently your pay though i.e monthly, quarterly etc.

LPG duty was set to lose the discount last April. Lobbying from the LPG association has won a stay of execution.
Someone I know recently sold his LPG supply business as it had tailed off and there were loads more problems with the new more complicated systems.

Veg oil declaration.

As you have said register with C&R then they send you a declaration form every month. Just declare your usage and pay accordingly.

 

[Copiertech]

it wasnt set to lose its discount, just to have the freeze taken of the duty. there are no immediate plans to drastically increase the duty. 47kg bottles of propane worked out at somewhere around just under 30p a litre last time i checked

 

[Dieselman]

it wasnt set to lose its discount, just to have the freeze taken of the duty. there are no immediate plans to drastically increase the duty. 47kg bottles of propane worked out at somewhere around just under 30p a litre last time i checked

Without wishing to sound contrary, but in Government Tax talk what does
" have the freeze taken of the duty." mean.

LPG was to have the discretionary tax levy removed last April. This levy was set artificially low to promote the use of LPG and to grow the fitting industry.

LPG is now a mainstream product and as such isn't to benefit from reduced tax levy. There are no real enviromental benefits so why should it benefit from an Eco tax levy.

Only pressure from the LPG association stopped the substatial discount on LPG tax being removed.

"there are no immediate plans to drastically increase the duty."

You are correct with your comment however watch this space next April.

 

[Copiertech]

there was a freeze on the amount of duty on lpg until last year, it was lifted and now they are free to raise tax but they cant justify doing it as there ARE environmental benefits to running LPG and they wouldnt want to be seen to be discouraging the use of alternative fuels. why are people so pessimistic all the time, these are the same arguments i have been hearing since 2001 since i started doing conversions, back then pub experts were trying to talk people out of doing it because they were going to take the price up to the same as petrol the next year. the folk who listened to that bullshit have lost out on 4 years of cheap motoring.

 

[Dieselman]

there was a freeze on the amount of duty on lpg until last year, it was lifted and now they are free to raise tax but they cant justify doing it as there ARE environmental benefits to running LPG and they wouldnt want to be seen to be discouraging the use of alternative fuels. why are people so pessimistic all the time, these are the same arguments i have been hearing since 2001 since i started doing conversions, back then pub experts were trying to talk people out of doing it because they were going to take the price up to the same as petrol the next year. the folk who listened to that bullshit have lost out on 4 years of cheap motoring.

Hmm. Not sure I agree with your comments here.
I'm not in the pub so can't claim to be a pub expert, but the "enviro" arguments are a bit thin for LPG.
There are a reduction of some emmissions but they are outweighed by the fact that LPG fueled vehicles are less efficient than ones fuelled by liquid fuels, thus they use more fuel per given distance.
So if LPG has a lower carbon content so produces less Co2 per unit burned but needs more units to give the same energy output (calorific value), then there is no reduction of overall emmissions.

LPG is NOT an enviro fuel as it derived from the same place as mineral fossil fuels...Oil!
Why should a fuel derived from a depleting fossil fuel recieve a tax reduction, especially as by it's use you use more of it?

Enviro tax reductions are supposed to be used for fuels that are sustainable and conserve fossil fuels, not the other way round.

We are set to have a major problem with lack of oil in the next 30 years, so surely conserving it, or it's by products, should be a high priority, not using more of it.

The only people trying to keep the LPG "enviro" tag alive are those installing it.

There is an argument that an LPG fuelled vehicle is cheaper to run than a petrol fuelled one, but if LPG was taxed at the same level as other road fuel it would die out overnight.

 

[Thmsshaun]

Well for me the problem for me was the arguments are far too convincing from both sides.


Over all I was left dazed and

infact I still am

When you head is in a confused state weather it would be worth it or not Nearly £2k is a big risk.

 

[Dieselman]

Compared to petrol:
75% less CO, 85% less HC, 40% less NOx, 87% less OZONE.

Compared to diesel:
90% less CO, 90% less HC, 40% less NOx, 90% less PM10.

PM10 (particulates) is the most harmful pollutant. LPG has 90% less PM10 than diesel.

Steve

I didn't pay much attention to these figures earlier as they are fairly obviously flawed.

A quick glance now confirms my initial thoughts. Unfortunately this is typical of the unquantified rubbish that is put out to convince the unwary public.

If anyone has any knowledge of tailpipe emmissions they will see the "mistakes" (not) straight away.

Steve, not your fault, you have just posted information as recieved, I'm sure.

 

[Dieselman]

Shaun

Stick to plan A. It's agood one for both the planet and your wallet.

 

[Copiertech]

lpg is a waste product from the refining process. using it is using fuel that would otherwise be burnt off. also some lpg converted vehicle (at least the ones using the OMVL dream 21 system) can run on CNG just by changing the tank and telling the software your running CNG. the reduced emissions when running lpg are mainly from the fact that due to the better mixing of lpg and air the fuel is burned more completly, resulting in less harmful pollutants.
why are you so anti lpg dieselman, its funny that the people i speak to who are most against lpg mostly drive diesels. why is that? we all just want cheaper motoring, we just go different ways about it.my current van is diesel and i used to have a tdi110 passat but it wasn`t for me, i like the sharp response and beatiful sound of a multi cylinder spark ignited engine, but each to their own. for the time being lpg is the only real alternative for cheaper motoring unless you want to take the bus or drive a small car. not for me thanks.