LPG Conversion

[Copiertech]

graph comparing PM10 particulates emissions of different types of fuel, research done by the australian government

 

[Copiertech]

from here http://www.resurgence.org/2005/howarth229.htm
For example, the average mileage per year in a petrol car is 12,000. This equates to approximately 4.3 tonnes of CO2 per year - over twice our total annual share. What can be done here? The major issue is to look at how we can reduce car journeys - by shopping locally, walking our children to school, using buses and trains where possible, and so on. Reducing car use is the easiest way to reducing emissions. Beyond that, converting a petrol car to run on liquid petroleum gas (LPG) will give an annual CO2 saving of almost one tonne per year, presuming you drive around 12,000 miles. Since 1999 the UK fleet of LPG vehicles has grown from 3,000 to 107,000 cars, representing a saving of more than 70,000 tonnes of CO2 per year. LPG emissions also contain ninety per cent fewer carcinogenic particulates than diesel and LPG is a lot cheaper, at around 38p per litre as opposed to 82p for petrol. The Energy Saving Trust is providing grants of around £700 per vehicle towards the cost of conversion for cars that are less than five years old. Conversion costs are typically around £2,000 per car.

 

[Copiertech]

http://www.tribuneindia.com/1999/99oct14/science.htm#1
http://www.lpg-vehicles.co.uk/lpg_news/lpg_meets_green_fuels_challenge.htm

 

[Dieselman]

I'm not anti any efficient product or fuel.

I think you will find the opponents of LPG are diesel drivers often because they have made that choice on more grounds than running costs. Even on true fuel cost diesel wins. I'ts only due to the reduced tax that makes LPG cheaper.

There are many arguments around emmissions and efficiency and I far one don't like wastage, especially of a finite product like fossil fuel.

There is no such thing as a waste by product of a refining process when that commodity is scarse. There are may better uses for LPG than inneficient petrol engines made even more inneficient. If it fuel isn't scarse why is the price going up?

Most information given out about vehicle emmissions is biased, but there is no escaping thermal dynamics.

The figures posted by Steve are wrong in several areas and misleading in others, why, to try to make LPG look good.
They mention ozone from petrol but not from diesel, why, because diesel hardly generates any, much less than LPG.
They mention PM10s from diesel, but no particulates from petrol or LPG. Particulates are one of the least problematic polutants so why do all pro petrol activists jump on them as an issue, because particulates and NOX are the only polutants a diesel emits greater quantities of. Actually even that's not true.
Notice PM10s are specified. Petrol and gas cars don't emit high quantites of PM10s, halelulya. Err problem. PM10s cant pass through the lung wall so cant cause the blood thickening that we had all been led to believe, that's down to PM2.5s which can pass through the lung wall.
Now have a guess which engines produce more PM2.5s and finer particulates. Ahh problem, and it's worse than that because overall petrol/gas engines produce greater quantites of particulates but less by mass due to their mass being less.

Even the CO outputs are wrong. Diesels emit much less CO than petrol engines so how can the percentage be the other way around?

Co2 is another example and is the major greenhouse gas as it's ballance in the atmosphere is the most critical.

People generally used to think diesel engines were producing emmisions because they could see them. Overall they produce less emmissions.

See how the problem is a complicated one and information isn't clear.

If LPG was that good manufacturers would be falling over each other to sell LPG cars. They're not, even Vauxhall as dropped LPG from it's line up. Why is that?

The immediate future for road transport is diesel and then veg oil. Even fuel cells are a problem because of how to make the hydrogen required.

 

[Dieselman]

if the government put up autogas duty you can easily buy a transfer pump and fill your car up off propane bottles for barbeques or house heating.

I take it you are aware this would be illegal. I would not advise people to dodge fuel duty, that is a C&R offence and could result in vehicle removal and a hefty fine.
If you have advised someone in a professional category you could be implicated.

 

[Copiertech]

who is advising someone in a professional cacacity? i just said it could be done. i dont do lpg conversions any more. i got fed up listening to cynical pessimistic bastards arguing about the issues of lpg for hours and hours when they had no intention of going through with it, they just wanted to argue with somebody and waste time. i`m geting fed up with this now you pedantic cynical bore so i give up.
[sarcasm] Dieselman you know everything about everything.you are right where hundreds and thousands of othe people are wrong. you truly are the god of all knowledge. I`m going to practise in the mirror everyday to be just like you[/sarcasm]
happy now?

 

[Steve Chafer]

Apologies

Gents

I must confess I did cut and paste my figures from a site without researching
-the devil made me do it!

I can only apologise for doing so especially if it has clouded any issues:

LPG is attractive for me as it "feels right" to do this and the one person I know that has done it on his MB is delighted, hardly a research based statement I know.

oops!

Steve

08:50 Update
found a site future forrest i/c carbon calculator
http://www.futureforests.com/calculators/travelcalculator.asp

it would seem a 2litre engine doing 200 miles a week produces
4.0 tonnes Co2 running on petrol
2.6 tonnes C02 running on LPG
2.1 tonnes running on diesel

so IMHO it would seem LPG in No1 with Diesel as a close runner up on grounds of cost just and controversial dirty (which I dont yet fully understand, so bear with me please ) "micro emmisions" , but petrol is way back in third.

Again apologies if In have caused this forum any measure of disharmonmy

If its any consolation the "man upstairs" has paid me back by causing my water pump to leak beaucoup last night, being repaired as we speak
£££

 

[grober]

To LPG or not to LPG that is the question?

Copiertech and Dieselman I would make a plea here for a little tolerance of the other guy's point of view. I have enjoyed the lively debate about this topic and found the cases made by both sides very informative. This is the very purpose of this type of forum. Everyone goes away a little wiser and will no doubt make up their own mind about the LPG issue. It would have been nice to hear some direct testimony from some folks who have got the conversion done and use LPG as daily drivers rather than the theoretical arguements but I thank you both for taking the time to post your own particular side of a complex arguement. Steve C your mate is courting disaster not declaring his conversion on the channel tunnel

 

[Dazza]

OK

Had long conversation with a local approved installer.

He had just finished a C180 estate so I was able to have a look and heard engine running.

Cost to convert £1600 inc Vat.

The engine starts on petrol untill it reaches the correct temp for running on LPG as it is not fantastic when cold this process is automatic, some older/cheaper systems require manual switching.

I use approx 60ltrs a week costing £58ish. LPG would be £24ish Price about 39/40p per Litre

I would recoup my money in 12 months if not sooner as my mileage is growing.

So its looking favourable at the moment but will be looking into it a little further, hoping to get contact details of other Merc driver to find his opinion.

So I will let you all know what I decide to do

 

[Karl]

Since buying an LPG kit and converting my 1990 E230 myself in year 2000, I cannot speak highly enough about the advantages of running on LPG. The engine runs smoother, quieter and "every mile brings a smile".

The Kit cost me £400 plus vat complete with inspection certificate for insurance purposes and a full tank of gas.

I recovered the cost of the conversion in less than 12 weeks.

LPG is currently 29.9p/ltr at my local Morrisons store. The car does about 25MPG on gas, I never use any petrol.

My advice don't delay as it's costing you money!

 

[Thmsshaun]

Some questions.

1)What size tank is it that you have?
2)Is it a boot tank or spare wheel well?
3)What range do you get to the tank?


Good to here from someone who has converted.

 

[Madferrit]

I've emailed a few people on another forum who have converted their mercs to LPG. Some have given raving reviews about their conversion.

Hopefully when i hear back i'll post their comments for other people to decide.

 

[GrahamC230K]

who is advising someone in a professional cacacity? i just said it could be done. i dont do lpg conversions any more. i got fed up listening to cynical pessimistic bastards arguing about the issues of lpg for hours and hours when they had no intention of going through with it, they just wanted to argue with somebody and waste time. i`m geting fed up with this now you pedantic cynical bore so i give up.
[sarcasm] Dieselman you know everything about everything.you are right where hundreds and thousands of othe people are wrong. you truly are the god of all knowledge. I`m going to practise in the mirror everyday to be just like you[/sarcasm]
happy now?

No need for replies like that.

I too stand back in amzement of Dieselmans's knowledge - I am not sure what his profession or educational background is, but his knowledge on fuels and fuel systems is just astonishing (to me who knows nothing on this topic).

Why not just enjoy and discuss. Getting down to insults doesn't help your case, but why not try and back up your defence if you feel you are correct?

 

[Thmsshaun]

I've emailed a few people on another forum who have converted their mercs to LPG. Some have given raving reviews about their conversion.

Hopefully when i hear back i'll post their comments for other people to decide.

Look forward to the replies. I am interested in any alternative Fuels. Anything to take reliance off petrol and diesel. For Enviromental purposes. Cost cutting paying less tax etc and just a general interest in engines and alternative fuel products.

 

[Karl]

Some questions.

1)What size tank is it that you have?
2)Is it a boot tank or spare wheel well?
3)What range do you get to the tank?


Good to here from someone who has converted.

Mine is a standard 400mm bullet tank of 100ltr water capacity which will hold 80Ltrs of LPG due to action of the multivalve which allows 20% for expansion of the fuel during hot weather.

It is on a raised frame between the wheel arches and occupies about 35% of the boot space.

The range is approx 440-460 miles on gas with a saving of over £50 on each tankfull!

 

[Dieselman]

who is advising someone in a professional cacacity? i just said it could be done. i dont do lpg conversions any more. i got fed up listening to cynical pessimistic bastards arguing about the issues of lpg for hours and hours when they had no intention of going through with it, they just wanted to argue with somebody and waste time. i`m geting fed up with this now you pedantic cynical bore so i give up.
[sarcasm] Dieselman you know everything about everything.you are right where hundreds and thousands of othe people are wrong. you truly are the god of all knowledge. I`m going to practise in the mirror everyday to be just like you[/sarcasm]
happy now?

How about we call a truce on this?

Hope to see you on the forum again soon.

 

[Dieselman]

who is advising someone in a professional cacacity?

My comment wasn't supposed to be a dig at you, simply advice.

If you as an installer then "advise" a user that they could use untaxed fuel in a road vehicle, if they were caught they might implicate you.

Messing with C&R isn't for the feint hearted.

 

[Copiertech]

i was just just speaking my point of view. i felt you were insinuating that i was trying to mislead people. i might have over reacted a bit but i was only trying to help other forum users by sharing my inside knowledge on the technical side of doing lpg conversions. the false argument that the government was just about to raise tax on lpg came up time and time again when i was trying to sell conversions and it lost me a LOT of money and wasted effort. I dont do lpg conversions any more due to people who had been misinformed about increases in lpg duty(this was 2001-2004) and wouldnt commit to doing it and also cowboy installers undercutting prices by fitting a cheap singlepoint mixer to vehicles which really need a sequential multipoint system.
if you have any hard evidence, not speculation that the governent will absolutely defineatly increase lpg duty to the same as petrol please share it with us all, as i`m sure many people are considering conversions right now (me included, i`m saving up for a w140 or a bmw 740 and it will be running on gas).
even if lpg duty was raised to the same as petrol lpg will still be cheaper as it is cheaper to produce. if lpg becomes too dear CNG is a cheap alternative and with an lpg conversion your car has most of the infrastructure in place to run the vehicle on CNG you just change the tank and disconnect the coolant supply to the reducer.

 

[robert.saunders]

There are many posts on LPG - this one formed my two-penneth, with my own experiences of LPG-run vehicles, albeit none MB.

Link

We're still having problems with the LPG Astra's, and certainly can advise the council are distinctly not-interested in running them as a major fleet component. I do always wonder why so many fleet users stick with diesel, rather than LPG if it's so fab!

However, I am encouraged by the responses from those "converted" who are, indeed, "converted"!

 

[Dieselman]

Please be assured that I don't think you were trying to mislead others. The problem is that the information readily available is generally biased and out of date, especially most articles in the press.

You are quite correct about poor installations, unfortunately a number of them are performed by LPGA members.

I'm sure you will get some calls from forum members that are considering conversions.

Speak to you soon.