Luton Airport car park fire

[clk320x]

So, you're saying that there's no difference in battery performance between an EV that is only supercharged at 100+ Kwh, to 100% full.....

And battery performance for the little Tesla 3 which is only charged on a granny cable to 80% ?

Sure about that?

Because if there's no difference, why do all EV manufacturers emphasise only charging to 80% "for daily driving," and warn about continued dependence on very high rate charging.

(To this day, I still don't understand why people go on and on about the benefits of supercharging when for the average motorist with her own driveway, driving 8 - 10,000 miles a year aka 160-200 miles a week, a granny cable is going to be more than enough to meet her needs most of the time)

This is an interesting point and one I feel qualified to answer.

First of all - the higher charge rates are only at lower SOCs - as the SOC rises the BMS lowers charge rate, and multiple long term studies have found that (at least in Teslas case) frequent DC charging has no significant effect on battery degradation. Teslas advice is to charge in the most convenient way for you - I know many drivers who only supercharge as they don’t have home charging. The main killer for batteries is heat - so you only get the max charge rate in ideal conditions, when the battery is up to temperature etc… the car will start to pre-condition the battery when you are en-route the a supercharger, and if you still haven’t reached optimum conditions it will cap the rate at the start until said conditions are reached. The BMS is extremely good at what it does.

The newer LFP batteries can also regularly be charged to 100% with no negative effects, however even non-LFP can be charged to 100% with no issues for long journeys when needed - it’s just advised not to leave them sat at 100% SOC for long periods of time.

I’m not disputing the fact that using solely slow charging is the best solution - but who actually cares? It’s a car - I would always say use it in the most convenient way possible. Home charging is great and the best way - but if you need to travel long distances just plug it in at the rapid charger and get on with it.

Typed whilst supercharging at 120kw…

 

[KennyN]

Typed whilst supercharging at 120kw…

Just think , if you had an ICE vehicle you could be home by now - beer in hand and the curry wouldn`t be getting cold.

K

 

[clk320x]

Just think , if you had an ICE vehicle you could be home by now - beer in hand and the curry wouldn`t be getting cold.

K

It only adds 15 mins to my trip & I have an excuse to get a coffee and donut…

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Ooooof, but if that scares you then don’t look at the depreciation of a 2020 Jaguar XJ, it will make your eyes water
If the iPaces you mentioned were listed on Autotrader today then they would be least expensive of the 304 2020 iPaces listed.

That's a comparison to a conventional Jag limo.

Isn't the fairer comparison to the (originally much cheaper) Jaguar SUV, which will retail for around £30k, not £22k like the I-Pace ?

So the F-Pace has only lost something like £10k, depending on how it was bought.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Just come across what I think is a interesting fact the most stolen EV in the country is the Nissan Leaf.

The Leaf has to be the most stolen EV in the country !

They've sold 200,000 Leaf's over the last decade, all of which are so cheap that they'll be living in the poorer parts of the UK.

Unlike Teslas etc which sit in the wealthier Burbs, and which have wonderful security cameras AND apps that tell you exactly where the wretched thing.

Lose your Tesla (Porsche or Range Rover) and you'd be able to track it all the way until Soweto, where some wee fella will hack the software and only then make it disappear.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

It only adds 15 mins to my trip & I have an excuse to get a coffee and donut…

But why not on your driveway overnight ?

 

[rf065]

It only adds 15 mins to my trip & I have an excuse to get a coffee and donut…

So, you're putting on weight?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

This is an interesting point and one I feel qualified to answer.

First of all - the higher charge rates are only at lower SOCs - as the SOC rises the BMS lowers charge rate, and multiple long term studies have found that (at least in Teslas case) frequent DC charging has no significant effect on battery degradation. Teslas advice is to charge in the most convenient way for you - I know many drivers who only supercharge as they don’t have home charging. The main killer for batteries is heat - so you only get the max charge rate in ideal conditions, when the battery is up to temperature etc… the car will start to pre-condition the battery when you are en-route the a supercharger, and if you still haven’t reached optimum conditions it will cap the rate at the start until said conditions are reached. The BMS is extremely good at what it does.

The newer LFP batteries can also regularly be charged to 100% with no negative effects, however even non-LFP can be charged to 100% with no issues for long journeys when needed - it’s just advised not to leave them sat at 100% SOC for long periods of time.

I’m not disputing the fact that using solely slow charging is the best solution - but who actually cares? It’s a car - I would always say use it in the most convenient way possible. Home charging is great and the best way - but if you need to travel long distances just plug it in at the rapid charger and get on with it.

Typed whilst supercharging at 120kw…

Amen to all that.... But why is the new-ish Tesla 3 LR that i'm using telling me to charge to 80% for daily driving?

Which I've diligently done - because it's quicker - except when heading off on long distance jaunt into the mountains, or onto an Island, where I don't know in advance, if I'll have access to a granny charger ?

 

[clk320x]

But why not on your driveway overnight ?

I’m visiting a friend and don’t want to charge at their house.

 

[Dryce]

Because if there's no difference, why do all EV manufacturers emphasise only charging to 80% "for daily driving," and warn about continued dependence on very high rate charging.

There is some ambiguity in what is said.

My understanding having been poking around is that cells in current Teslas may be better than the ones used a few years ago. Tesla also seem to be the ones at the top of the pile in terms of battery management.

The claim for the cells from Panasonic is only a 19% decline in capacity over 1500 cycles. That's impressive.

(I think there should be a question raised as to why we don't seem to get the same number of cycles from some of our laptop and phone batteries. ).

But also factor into this the effect of seasons in those parts of the world where we get lower ambient temperatures. Because that effect will magnify the effect of aging significantly when it comes to winter.

 

[clk320x]

Amen to all that.... But why is the new-ish Tesla 3 LR that i'm using telling me to charge to 80% for daily driving?

Which I've diligently done - because it's quicker - except when heading off on long distance jaunt into the mountains, or onto an Island, where I don't know in advance, if I'll have access to a granny charger ?

Yeah the LR is non-LFP so it’ll recommend 80/90% for daily use - you’re doing the right thing. It’s always best to charge up to 80% as it’s quicker, most of the time I just charge it up to 60% as it takes barely any time.

Anyway - I'm leaving now, I’ll check in later.

 

[190]

(I think there should be a question raised as to why we don't seem to get the same number of cycles from some of our laptop and phone batteries. ).

That's must be because few people are aware that laptop battery life can be extended by better management of the charging i.e they are not aware that just like charging an EV, stopping at 80% full charge will double the battery life. I would have thought by now smart charging regimes would be built into laptop charging. Perhaps it is for high end laptops but I've recently bought a basic Asus laptop and there is no facility to programme sympathetic charging.

I expect IT people will know about this. To get a comprehensive report on your laptop battery open a Command prompt and type

powercfg /batteryreport

The report will tell you amongst other things how long the battery has been lasting between charges and what % of original battery capacity is remaining. My old laptop was down to 55% of it's original capacity and my new laptop is still at 100% and lasting 10.5 hours on average between charges, sometimes 12 hours which is impressive.

 

[markjay]

It's a simple point. Vehicles need to be "maintained" for more reasons than just their drivetrain.

Specifically for Tesla, Taycan and the Leaf there are:

Touchscreen failures,
suspension problems,
power steering problems,
software glitches,
erratic braking (including "phantom braking,"
electrical failures of componentry, cameras and cabling,
plastics,
motors,
erratic warnings,
sensors,
bodywork,
windscreens,
water leaks (top, bottom, and side),
those irritating noisy frameless door windows on the Tesla 3,
those wretched sunroofs on early Teslas that cost thousands to replace,
and .... erratic battery loss while the vehicle is left parked and unused.

Just like the owner of a five year old Mercedes, the owner of a five year old Tesla or Nissan Leaf won't go to her main dealer for these issues.

There's a difference between repair and maintenance.

Repair is reactive.

Maintenance is preemptive.

As an owner, you have control over the maintenance of the car, but not over faults and failures.

EVs have very little maintenance. That doesn't make them reliable cars, it simply means that the chances of things going wrong are the same on a well maintained car as they are on a poorly maintained car - because whatever maintenance there is, it is minimal and won't prevent faults from developing (unlike ICE cars).

 

[clk320x]

Just like the owner of a five year old Mercedes, the owner of a five year old Tesla or Nissan Leaf won't go to her main dealer for these issues.

In the U.K. at least most repairs go through Tesla even on the 9 year old MS cars… the costs are pretty decent for a ‘main dealer’. There isn’t much competition in terms of aftermarket repairers, a few well known ones are CleevelyEV and EVlink - both of which are excellent.

 

[clk320x]

That's must be because few people are aware that laptop battery life can be extended by better management of the charging i.e they are not aware that just like charging an EV, stopping at 80% full charge will double the battery life.

Who would care? A laptop battery is peanuts in comparison to a car battery.

I would say that it’s similar for phone batteries, my iPhone is always charged to 100% and run down to flat often.

 

[markjay]

That's must be because few people are aware that laptop battery life can be extended by better management of the charging i.e they are not aware that just like charging an EV, stopping at 80% full charge will double the battery life. I would have thought by now smart charging regimes would be built into laptop charging. Perhaps it is for high end laptops but I've recently bought a basic Asus laptop and there is no facility to programme sympathetic charging.

I expect IT people will know about this. To get a comprehensive report on your laptop battery open a Command prompt and type

powercfg /batteryreport

The report will tell you amongst other things how long the battery has been lasting between charges and what % of original battery capacity is remaining. My old laptop was down to 55% of it's original capacity and my new laptop is still at 100% and lasting 10.5 hours on average between charges, sometimes 12 hours which is impressive.

True. I am in IT, and we also sell and maintain laptops. Battery life is very much dependent on the charging regime.

 

[markjay]

(To this day, I still don't understand why people go on and on about the benefits of supercharging when for the average motorist with her own driveway, driving 8 - 10,000 miles a year aka 160-200 miles a week, a granny cable is going to be more than enough to meet her needs most of the time)

It depends on how you use the car.

My EV boasts the fastest charging on the planet (I believe), it has an 800v system and can charge at 220kW, which has been demonstrated to charge the battery from 10% to 80% in just 18 minutes.

However..... in the two years that I had it, I have only once charged it on a 50kW charger. Every other charging was done on the lamppost outside my house at 4.7kW (only marginally faster than a granny cable).

Why? Because I never needed to charge it anywhere else.

Last night I left it to charge overnight to 100%. This morning I drove to Bisley and back. The car now has 80% battery.

I probably won't need to hook it up to a charger again for a fortnight.

 

[clk320x]

It depends on how you use the car.

My EV boasts the fastest charging on the planet (I believe), it has an 800v system and can charge at 220kW, which has been demonstrated to charge the battery from 10% to 80% in just 18 minutes.

However..... in the two years that I had it, I have only once charged it in a 50kW charger. Every other charging was done on the lamppost outside my house at 4.7kW (only marginally faster than a granny cable).

Why? Because I never needed to charge it anywhere else.

Last night I left it to charge overnight to 100%. This morning I drove to Bisley and back. The car now has 80% battery.

I probably won't need to hook it up to a charger again for a fortnight.

Yes, the average mileage in the U.K. is something like 8000 pa…. Yet people still complain about a 300 mile max range.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

It depends on how you use the car.

My EV boasts the fastest charging on the planet (I believe), it has an 800v system and can charge at 220kW, which has been demonstrated to charge the battery from 10% to 80% in just 18 minutes.

However..... in the two years that I had it, I have only once charged it in a 50kW charger. Every other charging was done on the lamppost outside my house at 4.7kW (only marginally faster than a granny cable).

Why? Because I never needed to charge it anywhere else.

Last night I left it to charge overnight to 100%. This morning I drove to Bisley and back. The car now has 80% battery.

I probably won't need to hook it up to a charger again for a fortnight.

Exactly my point.

Did you shoot anything interesting?

.

 

[Dryce]

Yes, the average mileage in the U.K. is something like 8000 pa…. Yet people still complain about a 300 mile max range.

Maybe because many of these expensive EVs aren't rated even at 300.

And that's from new - possibly at a higher than likely ambient temperature than you'd have in the UK.

(I would add that I complain at 400'ish mile range of some petrol hybrids.)