Luton Airport car park fire

[Will]

I think these posts would be better off in the dedicated EV thread that we have now?

It’s one of the main reasons I generally avoid it as it’s one of those threads that just goes around in circles, with the same people desperately googling facts and figures to support a view that they have on the subject and refuse to change.

This thread was about a fire in a car park, not charging efficiency or whatever.

The whole purpose of the update on this thread was to clarify that the fire was categorically caused by a diesel Range Rover and not an EV as some people might have assumed

Here is the dedicated EV thread:

Thread 'The EV fact thread'

Nov 1, 2023

Can we try and stick to facts (such as they are) that are reported in main stream media , preferably from more than one scource ? They will of course on many occassions be bought to us via social media by either people who are 100% conviced that EV's are the future and those who have polar opposite views...and everyone in between.

It will be hard to ignore the messenger , in the two clips I post here one is a softly spoken Kiwi bloke and the other is John C , but it is the message that must be the truth and not the opinion.

Disclaimer.

• I do not work in the car industry , I have...

• Petrol Pete
• Replies: 6,702
• Forum: Electric Mercedes models

• 

 

[BTB 500]

Love the idea that the economic case for EV ownership can turn on an extra penny per mile because of “25% lost during home charging.”

It doesn't, but consistently quoting figures that are lower than the real cost is still wrong.

 

[BTB 500]

That's not the same at all... What you describe is simply an honest mistake that EV owners often do because they don't think/know about the charging losses.

I don't agree because the same 'honest mistake' is widely made by companies/organisations ... it's not just owners.

In fact, it's no different to ICE cars owners who simply rely on the mpg displayed on the dash, not knowing/thinking that it's inaccurate.

Running cost per mile isn't often quoted as an advantage of ICE though. And I doubt the OBD would ever be as much as 25% out.

 

[BTB 500]

Even the 25 percent loss is BS in nearly all cases. That's the absolute worst case scenario. Most studies show between 10 and 15 is about average.

Can you point us to independent studies saying this? ADAC in Germany specifically measure charging losses for every EV they test, and give a range of 10-30%. I've not seen an average quoted but many individual cars I've looked up are in the 20-25% range.

@Mactech was sceptical about charging losses on his BMW i3 but found that it was losing (from memory) about 22% when he checked. Of course this isn't a deal breaker, but it's a fact.

 

[markjay]

I don't agree because the same 'honest mistake' is widely made by companies/organisations ... it's not just owners.

Be it as it may, it's still an honest mistake made out of ignorance rather than deliberately spreading misinformation.

And yes, the EV cost-per-mile is nigh on impossible to calculate accurately, because the m/kWh varies significantly based on a range of factors, because the cost of electricity can vary from nought to 79p per kWh, because the contribution of the saving on servicing and brakes compared to ICE cars is dependent on annual mileage covered, because the tax breaks - even for private owners (low VED, no London congestion charge, etc) - are artificial and may be withdrawn at any time, because the depreciation - especially for new models - is unknown, and yes, also because of the charging losses - the oft quoted '10% to 25%' is a big margin.

 

[BTB 500]

Be it as it may, it's still an honest mistake made out of ignorance

By owners, possibly. By other organisations/companies, possibly not. Either way it's still misinformation when referring to the cost of 'fuelling' an EV.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Range is range, consumption is consumption. It’s the way of measuring the efficiency of converting the fuel source into motion, and enables us to compare petrol, diesel, electricity, hydrogen and and other fuel type or energy source.

They are both based upon the premise that fuel or energy source is onboard and do not try to include the efficiency associated with getting the fuel from its original source to being onboard. If you do it for one you need to do it for all to compare.

That doesn’t mean that there aren’t inefficiencies in the production, storage and distribution of the fuel or energy source, but they’re excluded because range and consumption don’t require it, and it would become to vague to enable comparison.

Cost per mile with an EV is more variable and it’s more difficult to measure. Unless using a public or home charger (and tariff) capable of measuring it accurately, most people can’t measure the cost of electricity “dispensed” during charging.

For experts such as those on the forum, let’s just assume that whichever cost per mile is mentioned is an estimate, and the real cost could be as much as 30% on top to account for losses during charging,. It won’t really change the validity of EVs.

Those using the public chargers can measure both the amount of electricity and cost of electricity - just like a petrol pump - and so there can be a direct and fair comparison. But most people - most of the time - don’t charge that way.

 

[markjay]

Range is range, consumption is consumption. It’s the way of measuring the efficiency of converting the fuel source into motion, and enables us to compare petrol, diesel, electricity, hydrogen and and other fuel type or energy source.

They are both based upon the premise that fuel or energy source is onboard and do not try to include the efficiency associated with getting the fuel from its original source to being onboard. If you do it for one you need to do it for all to compare.

That doesn’t mean that there aren’t inefficiencies in the production, storage and distribution of the fuel or energy source, but they’re excluded because range and consumption don’t require it, and it would become to vague to enable comparison.

Cost per mile with an EV is more variable and it’s more difficult to measure. Unless using a public or home charger (and tariff) capable of measuring it accurately, most people can’t measure the cost of electricity “dispensed” during charging.

For experts such as those on the forum, let’s just assume that whichever cost per mile is mentioned is an estimate, and the real cost could be as much as 30% on top to account for losses during charging,. It won’t really change the validity of EVs.

Those using the public chargers can measure both the amount of electricity and cost of electricity - just like a petrol pump - and so there can be a direct and fair comparison. But most people - most of the time - don’t charge that way.

Agreed, though part of the difficulty is that with EVs, you can't predict the cost of the 'fuel' (electricity), thus the calculation of cost-per-mile becomes impossible.

As I pointed out, I can get the electricity for free if I can be bothered to drive to the local Aldi, or I can pay up to 80p per kWh if I charge at the wrong charger at the wrong time.

Then, while an employer providing chargers to staff will have a cost assigned to the electricity, the employee will see it as a cost of zero, meaning that the cost-per-mile of an EV compared to ICE car is different from the employer's perspective and from the employee's perspective - it really depends on which hat you're wearing.

This renders any talk of cost-per-mile for EVs almost meaningless - any figure given will only tell me what the other person achieved in their circumstances, but it won't tell me what my own cost might be.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Can you point us to independent studies saying this? ADAC in Germany specifically measure charging losses for every EV they test, and give a range of 10-30%. I've not seen an average quoted but many individual cars I've looked up are in the 20-25% range.

@Mactech was sceptical about charging losses on his BMW i3 but found that it was losing (from memory) about 22% when he checked. Of course this isn't a deal breaker, but it's a fact.

I will when I get home.... but it was not the different EVs that causes the biggest variation in losses....it was how it was charged. Massive differences between using a super charger and say a granny cable.

 

[BTB 500]

Massive differences between using a super charger and say a granny cable.

For sure - it was specifically granny cable charging at home that I was talking about. The cost per mile from high speed public chargers doesn't get quoted very often.

 

[markjay]

For sure - it was specifically granny cable charging at home that I was talking about. The cost per mile from high speed public chargers doesn't get quoted very often.

Understood. A bit random, though - firstly, not everyone lives in a house with a driveway, then, of those who do, I suspect that many will choose to install a dedicated charger.

Just how many people will actually choose to regularly charge their EV using a granny cable is unclear, but it certainly won't be the majority.

So, it's not obvious why this particular method of charging was selected as a comparison point. I can only think that it's because it's the cheapest form of charging after free chargers (e.g. at work, or certain retail parks) - but, again, it's quite arbitrary.

Furthermore, it does not make any allowance for longer journeys thar require charging away from home (e.g. at a hotel during an overnight stay).

 

[BTB 500]

So, it's not obvious why this particular method of charging was selected as a comparison point. I can only think that it's because it's the cheapest form of charging after free chargers (e.g. at work, or certain retail parks) - but, again, it's quite arbitrary.

As mentioned it was just an example of a common 'fake fact' from the pro-EV side:

But making up fake facts, and effectively running an anti-EV propaganda campaign as some media outlets do, is hardly the right way to win the EV argument

 

[Wolfie1]

Planes, multi-rotors ('drones'), small helicopters, and one boat

I have a couple of drones but i only ever use the dji 1 as the other is rubbish in comparison, i have quite a few boats that i go from my dad when he passed but haven’t had them out in years as they are so big i cannot fit them in my car, but its rc cars that i am really into i have quite a few of them, i have the nitro, petrol and electric variants of these. I did try a helicopter once but that ended quickly and have never tried again

 

[Petrol Pete]

I think these posts would be better off in the dedicated EV thread that we have now?

It’s one of the main reasons I generally avoid it as it’s one of those threads that just goes around in circles, with the same people desperately googling facts and figures to support a view that they have on the subject and refuse to change.

This thread was about a fire in a car park, not charging efficiency or whatever.

The whole purpose of the update on this thread was to clarify that the fire was categorically caused by a diesel Range Rover and not an EV as some people might have assumed

Here is the dedicated EV thread:

Thread 'The EV fact thread'

Nov 1, 2023

Can we try and stick to facts (such as they are) that are reported in main stream media , preferably from more than one scource ? They will of course on many occassions be bought to us via social media by either people who are 100% conviced that EV's are the future and those who have polar opposite views...and everyone in between.

It will be hard to ignore the messenger , in the two clips I post here one is a softly spoken Kiwi bloke and the other is John C , but it is the message that must be the truth and not the opinion.

Disclaimer.

• I do not work in the car industry , I have...

• Petrol Pete
• Replies: 6,702
• Forum: Electric Mercedes models

• 

Thank you Will , but let's face it we on here do have a habit of 'mission creep' and often drift off topic ....

 

[markjay]

Looks like my retired London Fire Service Watch Commander friend was bang on the money back in October 2023 when the fire had just happened.

These fires are fiendishly difficult to extinguish. Just have a look at this footage - even when firefighter are able to reach the vehicle fully-equipped, putting out the flames is anything but straightforward:

Drivers trapped on motorway for hours after lorry inferno

Drivers have abandoned their cars as they were stuck in five-hour long queues on the M5 for hours after a lorry inferno sent black smoke billowing across the motorway.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[st13phil]

These fires are fiendishly difficult to extinguish.

My friend had 30+ years as a fire fighter and reckoned that the only certainty about fire was that it was almost totally unpredictable.