Luton Airport car park fire

[whitenemesis]

For example: Your ICE car has a maintenance-free 12v Lead-acid battery. No one is saying that your car's battery can never go wrong. All I am saying is that there's no maintenance involved.

This means that the conventional 12v Lead-acid battery of a car with full main dealer service history is just as likely (or unlikely) to go wrong, as the battery of a car that has not been serviced at all for the past 10 years.

In short, there's nothing that the owner - or the dealer - or anyone else - can do maintenance-wise to prevent the 12v battery from going wrong.

That was the point I made regarding the motor and battery of an EV. They are both maintenance-free. The likelihood of them going wrong is the same regardless of whether the owner does it does not take the car to dealer to be inspected at the prescribed intervals.

The idea that old EVs will become less reliable because they will be 'poorly maintained' is therefore baseless.

The 12v lead acid battery doesn't (normally) have heating and cooling systems that the traction battery of an EV or hybrid does. The cooling system in particular requires routine maintenance to ensure the cooling ducts and fans do not become blocked/restricted by debris. One of the (very) few issues that come up on the Lexus hybrid is where the air intake that is located in the rear of the passenger cabin becomes restricted by fluff/dust/dog hair etc...

 

[markjay]

The 12v lead acid battery doesn't (normally) have heating and cooling systems that the traction battery of an EV or hybrid does. The cooling system in particular requires routine maintenance to ensure the cooling ducts and fans do not become blocked/restricted by debris. One of the (very) few issues that come up on the Lexus hybrid is where the air intake that is located in the rear of the passenger cabin becomes restricted by fluff/dust/dog hair etc...

I stand corrected.

But the question is whether it's actually a thing that old EVs become 'less reliable' because owner neglect cleaning the cooling ducts....? Or is it just a theoretical scenario?

 

[BTB 500]

I stand corrected.

But the question is whether it's actually a thing that old EVs become 'less reliable' because owner will neglect cleaning the cooling ducts....?

I believe many EVs use liquid cooling for the batteries, which is definitely not maintenance-free. Can old/high mileage ICE vehicles suffer from issues with the cooling system if periodic checks & maintenance are neglected?

 

[whitenemesis]

I stand corrected.

But the question is whether it's actually a thing that old EVs become 'less reliable' because owner neglect cleaning the cooling ducts....? Or is it just a theoretical scenario?

There is quite a bit of over capacity in the system design, so shouldn't be an issue climates such as the UK but there have been owners reporting a drop in mpg as the batteries go over-temperature and stop supporting the ICE. The car will display a warning message in the cluster.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

So batteries in an EV can never go wrong? Nor their circuitry?

Did you know that BMW & Porsche wiring and certain plastics is attractive to small animals, who find their eco-friendliness particularly tasty? (A friend has just lost bits of plastic off his two year old Porsche and has had it off the road for six months for a replacement to come through)

Unlike the batteries in our Mercedes which do go wrong, as regularly discussed on here.

(But not my batteries, of course, as I usually have batteries more than a decade old on my cars, which continue to work perfectly well, perhaps by luck, perhaps because I can be bothered to occasionally use a battery conditioner each Autumn and when I've left the car for a while)

If electrics are so reliable, why are those glorious Audi E-Tron GT's currently being offered on more than 40% discount, with two years on the clock, and less than a handful of thousand of miles on the clock?

View attachment 148139

Wind the clock a few years and a 40% fall on a high spec Audi A6, A7 or A8 would have been considered a soft landing. Buying new cars is an expensive business, buying new luxury and/or performance cars is a very very expensive business, EV or not.

 

[190]

I really don't think you can compare a normal 12 v lead acid starter battery with a Lithium ion traction battery. One is a simple, robust and relatively insensitive technology and if it does fail won't break the bank.

The other is vastly more complex and fussy and if it fails will likely write off a used car.

The impact on the market is already evident with some smaller used car dealers refusing to sell EV's because of the possible come back if they go wrong. They wouldn't be able to fix them or afford for someone else to fix them.

For the customer I would expect that extended used car warranties will be deemed essential for peace of mind. While that's already true to degree as cars have become more complex and expensive to fix, I would suggest that EV's take this requirement into another league. And of course warranties are just an insurance policy with premiums based on the cost of failure so they won't be cheap.

 

[zipdip]

Well there is blood all over the used car market,I can see why when I had a chat to those three car traders a few weeks ago that none of them had any EV's on their lots,Jaguar I-pace around 65 grand new on sale as a 2020 with 40 grand on clock up for a hopefull 22 grand,this EV game is too rich for me.

 

[markjay]

I really don't think you can compare a normal 12 v lead acid starter battery with a Lithium ion traction battery.

My point was purely regarding reliability as a function of maintenance.

Since both batteries are maintenance-free, their reliability isn't affected by the maintenance regime.

This is obviously not to say that are both equally reliable, obviously.

 

[rf065]

No I didn’t say that, I meant there isn’t ’routine maintenance’ as such - if a ‘cell’ fails then the entire pack is effectively bricked for safety reasons due to imbalance until it’s replaced/refurbished.

I suppose you’re right though, when people start running EVs on shoe-string budgets, dodgy ‘refurbers’ will pop up & that could be disasterous.

I take your point.

There is a you tube video from a guy in Texas with a Tesla where a cell had failed and Tesla quoted something extreme to replace the complete battery in a 10 year old car. He finds a garage in Florida who say they can replace the failed cell and sends his car down there on a flat bed truck, because when a cell has failed your range is limited to 50 miles or so, so you're not driving it any distance. If I remember correctly he gets the car back fixed for a few thousand dollars instead of twenty thousand or so!
Not sure if this matches your description of "dodgy refurbers" or not?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Well there is blood all over the used car market,I can see why when I had a chat to those three car traders a few weeks ago that none of them had any EV's on their lots,Jaguar I-pace around 65 grand new on sale as a 2020 with 40 grand on clock up for a hopefull 22 grand,this EV game is too rich for me.

Ooooof, but if that scares you then don’t look at the depreciation of a 2020 Jaguar XJ, it will make your eyes water

If the iPaces you mentioned were listed on Autotrader today then they would be least expensive of the 304 2020 iPaces listed.

Factoring in running costs - fuel and maintenance - the iPace would look like bargain compared to the XJ.

New EVs are expensive to buy, and they depreciate considerably, but that’s a new car thing, not an EV thing.

 

[markjay]

There is a you tube video from a guy in Texas with a Tesla where a cell had failed and Tesla quoted something extreme to replace the complete battery in a 10 year old car. He finds a garage in Florida who say they can replace the failed cell and sends his car down there on a flat bed truck, because when a cell has failed your range is limited to 50 miles or so, so you're not driving it any distance. If I remember correctly he gets the car back fixed for a few thousand dollars instead of twenty thousand or so!
Not sure if this matches your description of "dodgy refurbers" or not?

Agreed.

And you'll note that the top-trim S-Class cars tend to have a relatively short lifespan compared to (say) mundane C-220 cars - high repair costs kill prestige models much sooner than they do with the Fiestas and Focuses of this world.

Equally, Teslas are expensive to buy and expensive to repair, and for this very reason it's unlikely that many will survive longer than 10-15 years.

 

[Ted]

Just come across what I think is a interesting fact the most stolen EV in the country is the Nissan Leaf.

Bet they don’t get far.

 

[poormansporsche]

Bet they don’t get far.

But are they actually "stolen" or just reported "stolen". Perhaps due to the degrading battery issue many get "stolen" then of course burnt out to hide the evidence honest guv wink wink

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Surprised you’re still driving it with how dangerous batteries can be.
I’ve given up my mobile phone and laptop too - typing this from my 20 year old Windows XP desktop - but at least I’m safe!

Ah, so you think that the first few generations (1985 - 2001) of Windows were rubbish too !?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

For example: Your ICE car has a maintenance-free 12v Lead-acid battery. No one is saying that your car's battery can never go wrong. All I am saying is that there's no maintenance involved.

This means that the conventional 12v Lead-acid battery of a car with full main dealer service history is just as likely (or unlikely) to go wrong, as the battery of a car that has not been serviced at all for the past 10 years.
In short, there's nothing that the owner - or the dealer - or anyone else - can do maintenance-wise to prevent the 12v battery from going wrong
That was the point I made regarding the motor and battery of an EV. They are both maintenance-free. The likelihood of them going wrong is the same regardless of whether the owner does it does not take the car to dealer to be inspected at the prescribed intervals.
The idea that old EVs will become less reliable because they will be 'poorly maintained' is therefore baseless.

It's a simple point. Vehicles need to be "maintained" for more reasons than just their drivetrain.

Specifically for Tesla, Taycan and the Leaf there are:

Touchscreen failures,
suspension problems,
power steering problems,
software glitches,
erratic braking (including "phantom braking,"
electrical failures of componentry, cameras and cabling,
plastics,
motors,
erratic warnings,
sensors,
bodywork,
windscreens,
water leaks (top, bottom, and side),
those irritating noisy frameless door windows on the Tesla 3,
those wretched sunroofs on early Teslas that cost thousands to replace,
and .... erratic battery loss while the vehicle is left parked and unused.

Just like the owner of a five year old Mercedes, the owner of a five year old Tesla or Nissan Leaf won't go to her main dealer for these issues.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The idea that old EVs will become less reliable because they will be 'poorly maintained' is therefore baseless.

So, you're saying that there's no difference in battery performance between an EV that is only supercharged at 100+ Kwh, to 100% full.....

And battery performance for the little Tesla 3 which is only charged on a granny cable to 80% ?

Sure about that?

Because if there's no difference, why do all EV manufacturers emphasise only charging to 80% "for daily driving," and warn about continued dependence on very high rate charging.

(To this day, I still don't understand why people go on and on about the benefits of supercharging when for the average motorist with her own driveway, driving 8 - 10,000 miles a year aka 160-200 miles a week, a granny cable is going to be more than enough to meet her needs most of the time)

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

If electrics are so reliable, why are those glorious Audi E-Tron GT's currently being offered on more than 40% discount, with two years on the clock, and less than a handful of thousand of miles on the clock?

View attachment 148139

Apologies: this car has only only lost 33% of its value, or £7 a mile ( £27,000 over the 3,700 miles its been driven). It's an £85k cooking bitter E-tron.

But broad point remains, if all EV's are so reliable, why do they lose this much money and end up in Car Supermarkets?

(Or why does the much-loved e-Golf lose more money that a GTI ? )

 

[Darrell]

But broad point remains, if all EV's are so reliable, why do they lose this much money and end up in Car Supermarkets?

Because nobody wants them?

Supply and demand?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Wind the clock a few years and a 40% fall on a high spec Audi A6, A7 or A8 would have been considered a soft landing. Buying new cars is an expensive business, buying new luxury and/or performance cars is a very very expensive business, EV or not.

Absolutely understood.

But no-one's winding the clock back on the E-tron.

It's 2023, and a 2021 base spec ETron on 3,700 appears to have lost at least 33%. Isn't that a lot of money in 2023 terms?

Completely understand and agree that in "the good old days" it would have been routine - especially for something like the great M5 or E63

But this is 2021 to 2023...

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Because nobody wants them?
Supply and demand?

You might be on to something there !

Is it just fear, or is it actually wear, tear and maintenance?

Here's a list of TTD for a 2016 BMW i3 being prepared by Wisely next week for a dealer sale at £12,950.

Replace faulty iDrive display screen (black spot)
Replace both front suspension gaiters
Replace 4 rear parking sensors due to corrosion causing poor functionality
Replace front brake pads as approx 50% worn

(Plus a long list of routine bodywork interior cleaning / renovations.)