Mcse

[Shude]

MCSE Snobbery I'm afraid......

He kept on about Microsoft MCSE path and that CompTIA is for entry-level certifications. It sounded like he didn't believe that my MCSE was genuine or that I'd been awarded it by mistake! Let's put it this way: 620, 290, 291, 293, 294, 298 and Sec+ is probably the easiest way to get an MCSE but it's a valid qualification none-the-less!

So I asked about training for the Cisco CCENT cert and I was told that it didn't exist and I'd made it up. Not having a browser in front of me in the interview room I wasn't be able to prove them wrong but the chap did write it down so he'll find out it's real soon-enough.

All this grilling for an £18k per year (I was paid more for my first job in IT after I graduated back in 2000!) helldesk job but frankly I'm desperate now and it is literally just down the road from me.

 

[columb]

Well, to be honest you are right. You have a valid cert.
The problem is I wouldn't accept it ether.
On the other hand - that is a bit stupid that you need MCSE (M C S E!) to do a front line support!
I'm not really looking for certs but for real-life experience.

But that is a problem with MCSE. Please tell me how you can be Certified ENGINEER within 2 weeks? How come? In theory you could set up whole infrastructure! (can you?)

Well, where is this world going?
And by the way- Koening is not that bad at all. Been there (as it is cheaper to do exams there) and really can recommend.

Cheers
Chris

 

[fyonn]

Went to an interview earlier and one of the guys claimed my MCSE wasn't good enough because it had Security+ as an elective!

yeah, because in this day and age, taking a security course is a complete waste of time

 

[columb]

yeah, because in this day and age, taking a security course is a complete waste of time

No, SEC+ like NET+ are completely useless. I would turn EVERY person with those certs.
Have anyone seen questions for NET+? How you can fail this is beyond my understanding.

Cheers
Chris

 

[Shude]

Well, to be honest you are right. You have a valid cert.
The problem is I wouldn't accept it ether.
On the other hand - that is a bit stupid that you need MCSE (M C S E!) to do a front line support!

Don't get me started! MCSE and CCNA certifications are looked upon in some cases as an entry-level qualification, even though in real life they require several years of practical experience. Most agencies don't know what they mean and list them on all their job adverts like buzz-words.

I haven't done first-line in years (not since 2000 in fact!) but it looks like I'm going to have to start from the bottom again, which is highly frustrating as I'm sure you can imagine.

 

[fyonn]

Well, to be honest you are right. You have a valid cert.
The problem is I wouldn't accept it ether.
On the other hand - that is a bit stupid that you need MCSE (M C S E!) to do a front line support!
I'm not really looking for certs but for real-life experience.

But that is a problem with MCSE. Please tell me how you can be Certified ENGINEER within 2 weeks? How come? In theory you could set up whole infrastructure! (can you?)

Well, where is this world going?
And by the way- Koening is not that bad at all. Been there (as it is cheaper to do exams there) and really can recommend.

Cheers
Chris

to be fair, nick's not fresh from university with no experience. he has years of experience both with helldesks and using and adminning windows systems, however he's been missing the cute little letters after his name to "prove" that he's got what an employer needs.

so the 13 day course has merely put his years of experience into focus, given him some "official" technique to clean up the way he's been doing things for years and given him those all important letters.

Actually I recently did a course at firebrand myself. a 6 day CISSP course. As I've been working in the security field since I left university, I expected to, and did know a good deal of the content already, but the course filled in some gaps, gave me an approach and perspective for the exam and indeed, when I took the 6 hour exam on the sunday, I passed.

I don't think the fact that the course was an intensive one makes the certification any less valid.

dave

 

[columb]

Well, I'm not questioning Nick's knowledge. I've never said that. Even to pass exams in two weeks (with or without dumps) requires a lot of work.

I'm only saying as it was mentioned before that MCSE is a BUZZ world. Sad.

Cheers
Chris

 

[Shude]

Well, I'm not questioning Nick's knowledge. I've never said that. Even to pass exams in two weeks (with or without dumps) requires a lot of work.

Firebrand does not use dumps. The only thing which comes close to dumps is a quiz sheet we did on the day of the exam which asked a a few questions based on the subject material. This worked as a great reminder in the exam because sometimes something similar turned up. Quiz sheets won't help you in the simulations or the other types of questions and if you don't pass those then you'll fail the whole thing.

As for CompTIA qualifications; they are entry-level.

I could actually take the 270 XP exam and consider the 620 as my elective so the MCSE is 100% MS on paper, but I don't really see that I need to. There are other certification paths I could take.

 

[fyonn]

I'm not quite sure I know what "dumps" are in this context?

 

[columb]

Firebrand does not use dumps.

It's not to Firebrand what students are using after hours.

Cheers
Chris

 

[columb]

I'm not quite sure I know what "dumps" are in this context?

Brain Dumps- collection of question with answers (correct sometimes) which most likely will be same on real exam.

Cheers
Chris

 

[Shude]

I'm not quite sure I know what "dumps" are in this context?

"braindumps" are huge lists of questions and correct answers taken from current exams.

Rather than learning the material, unscrupulous people may attempt the exams with only having learned the answers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_dump

If it's proved that you've used brain dumps then you can be decertified from all your qualifications and banned from taking exams again. MS decertified several thouand people last year when it was proved they had purchased brain dumps from the web. Some people claim it gives them a boost and helps them to pass but IMHO they are just cheaters and that's that. I'm happy that I know (knew ) my stuff when I took my exams. Each of them was difficult (ok the Vista one was a bit simple ) and I'm happy knowing that I took them all honestly.

 

[columb]

Well, it would be really hard to prove that you have used brain dumps.

Anyway, I'm happy that I know my stuff And can go for any interview and do ANY test

Cheers
Chris

 

[fyonn]

Brain Dumps- collection of question with answers (correct sometimes) which most likely will be same on real exam.

Cheers
Chris

ahh right. we were given a test exam of 129 (not sure why the odd number) of ex-real CISSP exam questions and the answers (so we could mark ourselves, or just look if we wanted). The questions ad previously been used but had "expired" or been removed for some reason or other.

I'm not sure how it helped in the exam as I didn't recognise any questions. In fact I'm fairly sure there were several questions on things that weren't even in the official books

 

[whizzkid11]

Just to sum up this who subject - and diffuse any arguments that maybe ensuing somewhere...

There are two mindsets when it comes to Certifications, especially MCSE's etc.

1. You want to get certified because you are an expert in your product and want it recognised genuinely.

2. You want a certification becuase it means you get a job that pays better and requires that you have the minimum knowledge associated with that certification.

Scenario 1 is acheived by attending a full training course at somewhere like Firebrand - or mostly with years of experience dealing with the products/technologies associated. - In my books nothing beats experience.

Scenario 2 - has been acheived in one of two ways - either by taking crash courses which is designed to focus only on areas which you are likely to be tested on - in which case you learn a bit about the product, enough to take the exams and pass them - you don't real know the product as well as you are deemed to by the test, and may well forget what you have learned in the short time unless you use on it a daily basis.

The second method of achieving scenario 2 - is by using what are known as "Braindumps" - these are peoples recollections of actual exam questions along with their researched answers. Nowadays, due to the wrong approach of people and some 'dodgy' characters/organisations, the braindumps are no longer peoples recollections, but actual test questions in the same formats.

Obviously the pool of questions is limited, therefore, complete pools of questions are available as practice questions sets...

Microsoft has banned the use of Braindumps and will remove the certification of anybody who appears to endulge in any form of braindumping activity.

My personal take on the whole situation is if you know what your stuff, then you don't need any braindumps - and if you are taking braindump certifications to get a better job, and don't know your stuff - it will soon show!!

I hope that explains what Braindumps are...

The CISSP is a completely different ball game.... you to use your brains on that one not just memory!!

 

[Shude]

No, SEC+ like NET+ are completely useless. I would turn EVERY person with those certs.
Have anyone seen questions for NET+? How you can fail this is beyond my understanding.

A+ and Net+ are only accepted by MS if you have both of them, whereas Sec+ is accepted on it's own. Have you taken the exams? If not I'd reserve judgement

 

[WLeg]

I think it would be very difficult to pass any Boot camp or brain dump based style course without a reasonable amount of experiance in the field. Like Shude, I've been in IT for a good number of years (15+), but have never had any formal qualifications, so I did my MCSE via an American company (see previous posts) in two weeks, actually 12 days. Does this mean my MCSE is also invalid ? Likewise, I did my CCNA in 6 days, is this also invalid ?

No, because without the years of pratical experiance I could not have got through.

Would I hire a person with a 2 week MCSE/CCNA (I run my own IT Support company)- yes, depending on the person, their experiance and attitude. Does the qualifcations help ? not really, but it might open the door a little wider.

 

[fyonn]

The CISSP is a completely different ball game.... you to use your brains on that one not just memory!!

hmm.. yes and no in some regards.

you need to be able to prove 5 years of relevant experience to be able to take the exam (officially). so anyone with a CISSP should have many years of experience by default.

however, it's also described as a mile wide and an inch deep. tat's not quite true as it's a mile wide and in some places an inch deep, in some places it's half a mile deep with no rationale why it's one depth here and another depth elsewhere. Also it's a very academic qualification. One of the things the CISSP course taught you was what viewpoint the questions were coming from. Frequently we knew the "right" answer, and we knew that in the real world it was wrong.

but then the reason we knew the answer was wrong in the real world, was due to our years of experience in the field

 

[tpwuk]

Here's my tuppence worth. I've worked in IT for 20 years, 10 of those years I worked as a contractor (setup as a LTD Company). In those 10 years I worked for 3 bluechip clients and a medium sized client (3 x 3 year stints and a 1 year stint) so all long term from a contracting point of view. I have now settled down and work permanently for probably the biggest outsourcing company in the world. I have no formal qualifications and have had no formal training. Has this made it difficult for me to obtain work? The answer is a resounding "No"! I put this down to having the right attitude, being enthusiastic and knowing my limitations.

I'm fortunate to be in a position of being able to hire & fire & influence. Does it matter to me that someone has an MCSE? No, it certainly doesn't. Would it open the door any wider? Not at all. What does matter is attitude and experience. But even some of the most experienced people have bad attitudes, so experience alone is not enough. Finding a balance is the key.

 

[whizzkid11]

Here's my tuppence worth. I've worked in IT for 20 years, 10 of those years I worked as a contractor (setup as a LTD Company). In those 10 years I worked for 3 bluechip clients and a medium sized client (3 x 3 year stints and a 1 year stint) so all long term from a contracting point of view. I have now settled down and work permanently for probably the biggest outsourcing company in the world. I have no formal qualifications and have had no formal training. Has this made it difficult for me to obtain work? The answer is a resounding "No"! I put this down to having the right attitude, being enthusiastic and knowing my limitations.

I'm fortunate to be in a position of being able to hire & fire & influence. Does it matter to me that someone has an MCSE? No, it certainly doesn't. Would it open the door any wider? Not at all. What does matter is attitude and experience. But even some of the most experienced people have bad attitudes, so experience alone is not enough. Finding a balance is the key.

I agree mostly with what you are saying - and as I mentioned in my post earlier "Nothing beats experience" - and you get/learn from useful experience if you have the right attitude.

I slightly disagree with the second part of the of your comments - regarding do certifications matter - in large bluechip companies/institutions - when workforce reduction programmes are introduced, the people deciding who gets fired and who doesn't, are often high up the chain, and have no idea of who you are or your abilities/skills - they look at the pieces of paper and letters on your cv. That is a reality/fact - even if your immediate manager has to decide between you or your colleague certifications do come into play as he/she has to justify their position/decision.

In the current climate its a numbers game...