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NOx - Understanding How Many Of Us

For the C-Class anyway, the warranty is a bit of a no brainer - costs about £700 for the first year but when you renew its £450 - bargain for a 9 year old car in the grand scheme of things, especially when one dealer visit will basically be that much if paying for it yourself
 
I'm another number in the stats, my 2017 S205 C200 has a faulty NOX sensor, I had the Big Motoring Warranty, but they only would cover the fix with an aftermarket cheap sensor, my mechanic (Merc Care) simply said he doesn't do the service with aftermarket. Still thinking what to do.
 
Hi, would push back. One of my cars was a 2015 with no service history.
 
My car has been diagnosed with this issue this week. 2018 plate C250 S205 with 38k miles on the clock.
Ive been told currently the NOx sensor on back order from Germany
 
My car has been diagnosed with this issue this week. 2018 plate C250 S205 with 38k miles on the clock.
Ive been told currently the NOx sensor on back order from Germany
Ever think of mapping them out I had glc with this problem at end of covid 4-5 mths wait on back order of parts mapped out , different car best it ever drove. Although a dealer got it done for me so was free. Would have no hesitation in doing it again if had same problem.
 
How long are these sensors supposed to last?
My car has only covered 37k miles!
When it gets replaced is there every chance it will need replacing again after such small mileage?
 
How long are these sensors supposed to last?
My car has only covered 37k miles!
When it gets replaced is there every chance it will need replacing again after such small mileage?
The sensor is only part of a chain, once replaced, the next link in the chain will fail soon after.
 
Sensor has now been replaced and fingers crossed will be ok for a while now!!
£451 all in.
Garage that did the work told me they are doing several a week! They have also had to replace the tanks on some newer E class merc's! Crazy!
 
All:

I have been trying to understand some logic to NOx sensor problems with my late 2014 CLS for over a year now. I have good garage and tooling facilities, Xentry, Vediamo and Monaco and vast amounts of literature and testing data. I have not finished my deep delving yet or read everything in these posts here, but, noting some of the queries posed, some short details of my conclusions so far might be of use and are thus:

  • Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) NOx systems were originally designed for big commercial diesel engines that run at relatively constant speeds for long periods. These systems are not really that suitable for people's stop/start cars and the Daimler/Mercedes engineers probably did the best they could to engineer a virtue signalling solution for those pushing it.

  • The original sensors fitted to the earlier BlueTEC vehicles did not have to work hard because the system never worked with cleaning NOx as a high priority.

  • The original sensors fitted to the earlier BlueTEC vehicles didn't like the Diesel Software Update, which improved NOx cleaning measures but caused them to generate faults/fail.

  • If you just replace one sensor or both with new ones they will also generate faults/fail relatively quickly.

  • Quick fix 'just wire in a new sensor probe' also looks to fail quickly or not work at all. Third-party sensor probes are lower quality than the original NGK NS11A probes, regardless of what people selling them tell you.

  • Mercedes NOx sensors are 'Smart' sensors comprising a Continental control unit and an NGK NS11A probe hard-wired together. Although the Mercedes part number is the same, the control unit can be calibrated differently by Continental and consequently there are likely to be incompatibilities between sensors with different calibrations. Both fitted should have the same calibration number and older ones may 'fail' quicker.
  • Most owners, garages and Mercedes dealers don't really understand the Daimler/Mercedes Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) NOx system at a very detailed level. It's therefore not surprising that there are many tales of woe with expensive new parts fitted and faults supposedly rectified, but appearing again. - I have been there myself.

  • The NOx sensors don't become operational until you have driven for at least 10 miles, and then they quickly go non-operational if idling.

  • A lot of the NOx sensor errors are generated after a couple of drive cycles. You therefore may not see any errors after a repair until the vehicle has completed at least a couple of long journeys. If all you do is e.g. commute 10 miles to work and back each day, it's unlikely they will ever become operational and generate a fault until you take a longer journey. - Just hope the ULEZ nutjobs don't cotton on to that!

  • It looks like Daimler/Mercedes are well aware of the fact that the Diesel Software Upgrade has caused the hardware problems, but are not publicising it. They have been made to remedy the situation in other countries by regulators, but not in the UK.

  • Apart from uninstalling the Diesel Software Update, which is problematic, the only long-term solution appears to be to have the 'additional installation of special equipment '30o '' service performed at a garage (or elsewhere) that has Xentry on-line services. This involves fitting two new NOx sensors and software updates to various ECUs, not just the Engine ECU, and then adaptions to parts of the exhaust system. This is the 'proper' Mercedes fix for NOx sensor problems, but they have not openly told people this.

  • Before code '30o', there was a code '121' , but I suspect that the software did not work properly and was therefore quickly superseded. Essentially, the software mod part that affects the NOx sensors is that it changes the speed of readings.

  • On a CLS 350 the original NOx sensors (both) number is A 000 905 34 03. The number once '30o' has been performed is A 000 905 35 06. The correct number is only reflected on Mercedes VeDoc and on-line elsewhere after '30o' has been performed. I believe it's the same for all other affected vehicles. The new sensors are the same price as the old ones and at over £1K for a pair it's important not to get the wrong ones ordered/fitted.

  • It's worth noting that later production date models (all models of vehicle) had the updated software and NOx sensors factory fitted. Consequently '30o' is not applicable to them. Any CLS where the EPC on-line part number for its VIN appears as A 000 905 35 06 has already been upgraded.

  • Many people will be unaware of the proper fix for a working system, although I am aware that there are posts elsewhere that have already said this, albeit with a bit less information as to why.

  • I am fairly certain that deleting or 'mapping out' the system is a solution, but illegal. Yes, not buying a BlueTEC as well or dumping it on another mug is another solution. This is about 'fixing' the problem, though.

  • Poor and misleading advice far exceeds the good stuff. Search the internet for 'additional installation of special equipment '30o '' and that should provide more authoritative sources of information - not many, but those that count are there.
Regards
 
So am I right in thinking that everyone in this thread who's successfully had the sensors replaced via goodwill / under warranty has got full Mercedes Service history?
 
So, the EML came on during a 200 mile trip on Friday.....
No secondary signs, performance remained good, mpg dropped, so I expected it to be a NOX sensor

And iCarsoft confirmed a 'stored' P229F Bank 1 Sensor 2 fault today

As per the question above, have 'we' had luck or rather goodwill from MB on replacing these or is it hand in pocket time?
If so, what's been the approach?
Its not seen a Main Dealer since it was 3 years old but seen by specialists since then (its a 2016)

Its already booked into MBS for its MOT, B Service and front pads (prob discs as well) in 2 weeks time, so I really don't need to add 50% onto the cost on to the bill for one or both of these if there is a route to goodwill......
 
I have a 2017 E220d (S213) 4Matic which has done 65,000miles. I bought it in October 2020 since when, I have done 11K miles. The previous owner had it serviced by MB main dealers but I have only used my long-standing indie specialist.

In February, the engine management warning light came on so I booked it in at the indie to identify and rectify the issue. (He has genuine Star diagnostics equipment and, being a registered user, is able to input service data on the official MB DSB service record database). He gave me the print-out showing the fault - “P300646 NOx sensor 2 (cylinder bank 1) has a malfunction”. Unfortunately, he then told me because of the supply problems in getting replacement sensors from MB and the negative impact it had had on his customers and their goodwill, he had taken the decision, reluctantly, to decline any NOx sensor replacement work. The problems had been so bad that he was losing customers who were blaming him for the delays in repairs being completed as MB were keeping any stock that became available for their own customers who were also facing lengthy delays in getting the work done. He didn’t charge me for the diagnostics and suggested I took it to a main dealer as they might offer a contribution to the cost of repair with the NOx sensors being a known issue.

I went into my local Main Dealer and explained the problem hoping that I might be able to negotiate a contribution from MB by having a face-to-face conversation. I was told that they had done a number of these recently but they had been unable to get any goodwill contribution from MB. They also would not accept the diagnostic report from my indie and insisted on doing another – I fully expected this and had to accept, having no other option.

They ran the test on Thursday, ordered in the replacement sensor and fitted it yesterday, so at least main dealers have no supply problems now.

The cost was:

Diagnostic check £125.00

083269/NOx sensor £461.00

Labour to fit £150.00

VAT £147.20

Total £883.20

There is a two-year guarantee on the replacement sensor.

Just thought I’d let everyone know my experience on this issue
 
Happened to me in late 2020, recall for emissions update. Collected and it had the EML on, eventually through MB CS they agreed to run a diagnostics test to confirm.

Had given the car to someone else at that point and was unable to take it in. E220 60 plate.
 
I have a 2017 E220d (S213) 4Matic which has done 65,000miles. I bought it in October 2020 since when, I have done 11K miles. The previous owner had it serviced by MB main dealers but I have only used my long-standing indie specialist.

In February, the engine management warning light came on so I booked it in at the indie to identify and rectify the issue. (He has genuine Star diagnostics equipment and, being a registered user, is able to input service data on the official MB DSB service record database). He gave me the print-out showing the fault - “P300646 NOx sensor 2 (cylinder bank 1) has a malfunction”. Unfortunately, he then told me because of the supply problems in getting replacement sensors from MB and the negative impact it had had on his customers and their goodwill, he had taken the decision, reluctantly, to decline any NOx sensor replacement work. The problems had been so bad that he was losing customers who were blaming him for the delays in repairs being completed as MB were keeping any stock that became available for their own customers who were also facing lengthy delays in getting the work done. He didn’t charge me for the diagnostics and suggested I took it to a main dealer as they might offer a contribution to the cost of repair with the NOx sensors being a known issue.

I went into my local Main Dealer and explained the problem hoping that I might be able to negotiate a contribution from MB by having a face-to-face conversation. I was told that they had done a number of these recently but they had been unable to get any goodwill contribution from MB. They also would not accept the diagnostic report from my indie and insisted on doing another – I fully expected this and had to accept, having no other option.

They ran the test on Thursday, ordered in the replacement sensor and fitted it yesterday, so at least main dealers have no supply problems now.

The cost was:

Diagnostic check £125.00

083269/NOx sensor £461.00

Labour to fit £150.00

VAT £147.20

Total £883.20

There is a two-year guarantee on the replacement sensor.

Just thought I’d let everyone know my experience on this issue
Been there, done that. What you've experienced is the first stage of the fault process. Within the next 10 months, you'll move onto stage 2 which will cost more than this time and you'll then start to question why you didn't just remap the whole system out of the equation. Hindsight is a gift!
 
What does the remap do and is that something my indie would be able to do - if not, where do I go for it and how much does it cost?

Are there any implications for insurance companies - does it affect premiums?

Thanks for the opportunity of benefitting from your experience!
 
What does the remap do and is that something my indie would be able to do - if not, where do I go for it and how much does it cost?

Are there any implications for insurance companies - does it affect premiums?

Thanks for the opportunity of benefitting from your experience!

No need to respond to my questions, above. I've found the answers here.

 
Nov 20 – countdown AdBlue issue. Endured a 3 week wait for local dealership to carry out diagnostics and had to pay for it upfront. NOx number 2 sensor identified. Fortunately, they replaced both at no cost HOWEVER suffered at the very least a 15% fuel reduction ever since as they updated the revised emissions software.

April 24 ie 2 weeks ago. Countdown AdBlue issue again. This time the upfront diagnostic check is £185.

As a “grumpy old man” sometimes get annoyed and so called a “man with his laptop”. £250 later have BOTH an Ecomap install but also an AdBlue delete. (Nearly went Stage 1 but this is my commuter car).

As much as I loathe going down this route – am I really prepared to lay out £1500-2000 every few years for a poorly designed engineering solution eg my car has no AdBlue gauge, OBC facility, dipstick or any other OEM means to check level – I kid you not.

Anyone in the north-west want the contact number – feel free to PM. He even arrives in a “proper van”.

EUOf9w4.jpg
 
Edgersoldchap

Interesting post, but I suspect there's a bit more detail required to fully understand what you have had done and how that relates to other people's problems with regards to the NOx sensors. In short, generation 1 and 2 SCR systems are a bit naff whilst generation 3 SCR is much better. What gen SCR your vehicle has fitted makes a difference and I suspect a lot of the people griping here and elsewhere don't know what gen they have fitted. A year and a half ago I didn't have a clue!

Note that I am just an 'owner', and my opinions are just what I have come to understand over time. I am happy to be wrong, but seen and heard nothing to convince me differently yet! In my case, I have mainly been posting under a 'Value 751' thread and have recently had my CLS 350 NOx sensor problems finally 'fixed' (I hope). - The full detail about all that will be posted under that thread later when I have run my car for another month or so, but here's a few 'snippets' that relate to aspects of your post that should be of interest. Apologies for not explaining all the abbreviations if you don't already know what they mean, but just know that Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) is effectively what BlueTEC is all about.

Firstly, if you have a 2017 213 E Class 220 D, it's most likely fitted with the Generation 3 SCR system, which 'fixed' most of the Gen 1 and Gen 2 NOx sensor issues caused by the Diesel Software Update - your car did not need the update. Your Nox sensor failure was possibly just a 'normal' failure (they do happen) and just required replacing with no other software mods. DTC 'P300646 Component NOx sensor downstream of SCR catalytic converter has a malfunction. The commanded position cannot be reached.' looks like a 'proper' failure, but I would have to do a bit of digging to find out exactly what the 'commanded position' is, and what the exact fault trigger parameters are.

Mercedes Xentry is a good tool, but my observation is that it's a GUI mostly about identifying parts to replace, not repair them. The two Xentry tests for the NOx sensors (control unit and probe) don't test the sensors at all. They just test that the voltage supply and CAN lines on the wiring to the control units meet certain resistance criteria. If the wiring checks out the process is to then to fit replacement sensor/s. A diagnostic scan for NOx sensor DTCs is therefore very limited in scope, takes about ten minutes and, as long as it's not badly siezed, it's usually less than an hour to replace one and retest. Obviously, there's the time for paperwork and admin to consider.

What caused/causes many confusion at this stage is that, although (leaving just cleaning aside) it could simply be a matter of replacing the NOx sensor with a new one, it depends on whether the vehicle also needs some software updates as well. Generally, the need to update software applies to ALL generation 1 and generation 2 SCR system vehicles that already had the Diesel Software Update applied and no other updates. Retrofit codes 121, 30o and 03o with software updates and appropriate NOx sensors are correct fixes for gen 1 and gen 2 vehicles. Only the garages (or someone) with on-line access can perform this properly and get the Mercedes vehicle datacard updated to reflect the retrofit code and correct EPC NOx sensor numbers.

To further confuse people, there are effectively four basic NOx sensor types that Mercedes use. These can simply be classed as 'Non-TT3', 'TT3', 'TT3 fast' and 'Petrol' - Diesel owners can forget the petrol engine sensors. As well as there being four basic types of NOx sensor, there are three cable lengths (415mm, 615mm and 815mm), and there are also several numbers for what are essentially the same thing due to manufacturing number changes and supersessions. Consequently, there are lots of different numbers in existence, but it's really only four basic types with three variations of cable length for each.

In general, non-TT3 sensors are the original type fitted to generation one and generation two SCR systems. A pair of these were (and still should be) OK with the factory installed vehicle engine ECU software, but one or both get 'stressed' with the Mercedes recall Diesel Software Update applied (this makes the system 'work' much harder than it was designed to) and can fail prematurely and/or generate erroneous readings that can cause misdiagnosis on other parts of the SCR system.

The proper 'fix' for gen 1 and gen 2 vehicles with the Diesel Software Update applied is/was to fit two new TT3 sensors (so the part numbers change) and update software under codes 121 and then 30o (superseded 121) retrofits.

A month ago I became aware that Mercedes have recently introduced a code '03o Retrofitting Diesel (ZPD)' retrofit for gen 1 and gen 2 vehicles, which updates the data settings software (not the programming) on the engine ECU only and uses a Non-TT3 sensor at the front and a TT3 sensor at the rear. This can be applied to a vehicle that has had the Diesel Software Update applied, but not codes 121 or 30o. Effectively, this means that only the rear sensor needs to be replaced if it's just that one generating faults. It's likely the code 03o retrofit is being enforced by Xentry now in place of code 30o.

Generation three SCR systems were 'fixed' with what was effectively a Diesel Software Update (as well as better hardware) before leaving the factory. I have checked a couple of these gen 3 vehicles, and they seem to use the TT3 fast sensors.

The latest sensor numbers likely to be fitted to a 213 E220D are A0009053009 Front and A0009053109 Rear - TT3 Fast sensors, but I suspect that the supply chain issues may have Mercedes offering alternatives as part of their 'supersession' chain.

Mercedes main dealers and independants with Merc subscriptions always seem to want to fit 'Mercedes boxed items' when there are sometimes perfectly good, same quality after market parts available. Quality (not the cheap Chinese versions) NOx sensors that Mercedes cannot get hold of from Continental/Vitesco are readily available elsewhere. Continental/Vitesco themselves supply to the after market now. The only bit you probably don't get is a very expensive Mercedes cardboard box for your recycling bin.

Mercedes charge about £600+ for a new NOx sensor, but they have managed to get supplies of some remanufactured (repaired) sensors and they sell these for about £400+ each. Looks like you got one of these fitted to your E220.

Mercedes main dealers and indys with subscriptions to the Mercedes on-line system tend to just follow what the system tells them to do. What they rarely, if ever, tell the customer is exactly what they did in detail and, in my experience, don't really test that what they have done with NOx sensors is working properly. That's due to the time it takes to get the NOx sensors working properly and some faults may reoccur several hundred miles later after a 'fix'. That said, I am pretty sure Mercedes have been modifying Xentry over recent years in an attempt to improve or tighten up NOx sensor matters.

Mercedes NOx sensors are manufactured by Continental/Vitesco and are self-diagnosing 'smart' sensors, factory programmed and calibrated. When one first powers up it basically just sends a signal saying 'Hello, I'm OK' (or not OK). So when the technician checks the newly fitted sensor, as long as it's the correct type of sensor for the SCR software, Xentry should report no errors and generally it's now invoice time. However, the SCR system does not become fully operational until the vehicle has been driven for quite some time and some faults are only flagged after a couple of drive cycles, so errors can occur some time after the repair if it was not the correct 'fix'. In my experience the garages do not do the road testing necessary to prove the sensors are functioning correctly, and I doubt that customers would be happy to pay for it anyway. During proper testing of fully operational sensors the live graphing of NOx level readings, adblue dosing etc. are all available to record and analyse. If the 'fix' worked, most people would see this as a waste of time and money. However, if the 'fix' did not work and the customer gets a MIL a short time afterwards, it's then a trip back to the garage and generally lots of moaning and complaints from the customer that aren't always justified.

There are also some very involved and time consuming processes that are often necessary to reset and relearn the SCR system. These, like the fact that you can't tell if the system is working properly until you have road tested the car for some time and checked the readings, don't seem to be at all well publicised. It's about ten minutes work to bypass the ECU security and reset/delete the AdBlue countdown if you have the correct software. However, there's other things you need to do as well and you might also have to run the vehicle for a considerable mileage up (e.g.) a motorway at a consistent speed to check and get the SCR system to reset correctly. It's not immediately apparent that these other processes are required and if they are not done faults are likely to come back again in the future.

Note that I have not been able to discover what 'TT3' or 'ZPD' actually means yet.

Finally, a Taxi Driver friend of mine has a late 2016 E220 gen 3 SCR and he's had no problems with it in over a year now since he bought it (lots of mileage). You probably won't get as many problems with your car as us old farts with gen 1 and gen 2 SCR systems - replaced by gen 3 mid 2016, I think.

I trust some of that is of interest and makes you feel a bit better than the tales of doom.

Best Regards.
 

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