It sound like your abit like me Tiff in the way you spend time thinking about how you could have done it, sounds like in your head you have done the job probably a hundred times by now, I would have done exactly the same as you, you are basically at the mercy of your diag machine and the parts supplier. Stress not, just give them the money and wave them good bye.........
Frank O' Phile
Active Member
It's quite easy to see how this should be resolved. Imagine how the story goes when the customer is propping up the bar with his mates.
'So I took it to this back street arches garage who charges me £140 to fix it, but I hardly got out of the place when it broke again. They told me to go to the main dealers who fixed it properly and charged me £400. So I went back to the arches seeking my money back and and they only refunded my £140. Can you believe that?'
'Yes. Sounds reasonable.'
(Exaggerations and poetic licence included).
'So I took it to this back street arches garage who charges me £140 to fix it, but I hardly got out of the place when it broke again. They told me to go to the main dealers who fixed it properly and charged me £400. So I went back to the arches seeking my money back and and they only refunded my £140. Can you believe that?'
'Yes. Sounds reasonable.'
(Exaggerations and poetic licence included).
flango
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
I completely agree with this one, I've seen things missed by Bosch Diagnostics and dealer diagnostics that Have been picked up by Snap On Diagnostics. To be fair some of the dealer diagnostics are only as good as the technician using it would rather put my trust in an Indie that knows the marque in depth rather than an inexperienced technician at a stealer who will normally just keep changing parts until the fault is cured
We get this from time to time.
How do you know that the fault HAS actually been cured? it may well come back and she wouldnt tell you if it did.
If you used a genuine dealer part then the dealer should have swapped this free off charge (parts cost) as its guaranteed.
Technically you have done nothing wrong. You have diagnosed the fault and rectified the suspect part.
We always write on our invoices "we suspect X is the cause"
Doctors cannot always tell what is wrong with the patient, they can only give an educated opinion.
Vehicle Technicians are the same.
I would only offer a refund of the part as you have not actually done anything wrong.. The dealer has replaced exactly the same part but charged her more for it.. the fact that the original part may be faulty is a secondary issue.
If you really feel generous and want to keep her happy you could give her the full amount back.. however DO NOT give more than she originally paid as you are then admitting responsibility... Imagine in this case that its not the sensor and in a week she's back demanding more money.
How do you know that the fault HAS actually been cured? it may well come back and she wouldnt tell you if it did.
If you used a genuine dealer part then the dealer should have swapped this free off charge (parts cost) as its guaranteed.
Technically you have done nothing wrong. You have diagnosed the fault and rectified the suspect part.
We always write on our invoices "we suspect X is the cause"
Doctors cannot always tell what is wrong with the patient, they can only give an educated opinion.
Vehicle Technicians are the same.
I would only offer a refund of the part as you have not actually done anything wrong.. The dealer has replaced exactly the same part but charged her more for it.. the fact that the original part may be faulty is a secondary issue.
If you really feel generous and want to keep her happy you could give her the full amount back.. however DO NOT give more than she originally paid as you are then admitting responsibility... Imagine in this case that its not the sensor and in a week she's back demanding more money.
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Totally agree, but in this case the customer was immediately sent to the dealer on his return, without further investigation. Although well intended, the perception this creates is that the mechanic is not confident enough to proceed further, which would understandably negate any faith the customer may have had in the first instance. Although hindsight (and more importantly, the dealership) revealed the first diagnosis to be correct, the the mechanic didn't stand by it, so (again) it creates the impression of dabbling. Perception is the customer's problem here, which is why I said earlier, some jobs perhaps shouldn't be taken on in the first place if they knowingly can't be followed through to a satisfactory conclusion.
The manufacturer gets away lightly in these circumstances, as they are not liable for labour incurred whilst fitting faulty parts.
flango
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
Yep totaly agree, If you cant see it through to the end then dont take it on in the first place. Customer perception and confidence is everything.
SilverSaloon
MB Enthusiast
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i would say at best, refund them your side of things (labour and parts) - what they agreed to pay the dealer isnt your concern IMO.
Do you really want them as a future customer if this is how they think things should be settled? Probably best for you that they dont come back as next time they may want similar resolutions, or atleast try it on.
Do you really want them as a future customer if this is how they think things should be settled? Probably best for you that they dont come back as next time they may want similar resolutions, or atleast try it on.
Last edited:
The Hooded Claw
Active Member
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My "local" garage had a similar problem about 12 Months age......On a BMW they diagnosed a faulty MAF replaced same & off the customer went only to return a week later with the same fault, they too passed ot over to BMW & they replaced the MAF (Saying it was a "Faulty New Part")
the good thing here was Andy ALWAYS keeps his "Faulty Parts" for 6 months Customer came back ranting & raving that Andy was "Useless" & wanted his money back
Andy promtley produced the MAF he had removed PROVED it was faulty & sent the guy away with a flea in his ear.
Some time later back comes the customer saying he had been to Stratstone & asked to see this MAF they had replaced (They had sent it back to the manufacturers & showed him the Fault report.)
As the customer knew Andy had purchased the MAF from Stratstone ( Coz he could'nt get it in time from anywhere else) Customer demanded his money back from Stratstone as they had supplied a faulty new part.
STRATSTONE PAID UP!!!!
& the moral of this is ................Keep hold of any replaced parts on "High End" motors just in case !!!!!!!!!!
the good thing here was Andy ALWAYS keeps his "Faulty Parts" for 6 months Customer came back ranting & raving that Andy was "Useless" & wanted his money back
Andy promtley produced the MAF he had removed PROVED it was faulty & sent the guy away with a flea in his ear.
Some time later back comes the customer saying he had been to Stratstone & asked to see this MAF they had replaced (They had sent it back to the manufacturers & showed him the Fault report.)
As the customer knew Andy had purchased the MAF from Stratstone ( Coz he could'nt get it in time from anywhere else) Customer demanded his money back from Stratstone as they had supplied a faulty new part.
STRATSTONE PAID UP!!!!
& the moral of this is ................Keep hold of any replaced parts on "High End" motors just in case !!!!!!!!!!
EDZ649
MB Enthusiast
I haven't had time to read through all the replies so if this has been mentioned before my appologies.
I agree with the majority, offer them a refund on the entire job, get a credit for the faulty part from your supplier, but whatever you do put it in writing!
It needs to be worded so that you have a get out. Something like....
"as a gesture of goodwill we are prepared to offer a full refund for the work carried out by our company. If this is acceptable to you please advise us in writing within 14 days from the date of this letter. Please note that we reserve the right to withdraw this offer should you decide not to accept it"
It's all about being seen to be reasonable. If this ends up going to court the Judge will look more favourably on your company.
Make sure you get the part back so you can return it to your supplier.
Good luck
I agree with the majority, offer them a refund on the entire job, get a credit for the faulty part from your supplier, but whatever you do put it in writing!
It needs to be worded so that you have a get out. Something like....
"as a gesture of goodwill we are prepared to offer a full refund for the work carried out by our company. If this is acceptable to you please advise us in writing within 14 days from the date of this letter. Please note that we reserve the right to withdraw this offer should you decide not to accept it"
It's all about being seen to be reasonable. If this ends up going to court the Judge will look more favourably on your company.
Make sure you get the part back so you can return it to your supplier.
Good luck
kth286
MB Enthusiast
I too believe that is unusual for a new sensor to be faulty - therefore same fault is likely to come back.
The real reason for the fault has yet to be determined.
So it would not be right to refund for the part too soon, as you need to get confirmation from the supplier/manufacturer that sensor is either good or bad.
Perhaps you have car you can test it on for a few weeks.
So if the customer car suffers the problem again, the car will go back to the main dealer I presume, for further investigation - but how will you know.
I actually believe this is the time to write a letter/short report to the customer.
It will be the most unusual thing the customer will ever have seen, and it will give you an opportunity to get the facts across to the customer, and your proposed next course of action.
Next course of action should be to get the part checked and if faulty to get a refund.
You have worked on the customer car and reached a conclusion that a part (or sub-system of the car) needed attention. These hours have to be paid for.
Because you have written a good letter to the customer, and given them the expectation that a refund will be due, you can ask them the favour of feedback as to the conclusion of the work and repair at the main dealer.
If the main dealer work was good and the car continues to work properly, you should refund the sensor anyway, and perhaps make a contribution of a small refund on labour as gesture of goodwill as you had recommended the customer go the the main dealer.
You will have achieved 3 things by this approach.
1. knowledge of whether sensor good or bad.
2. improved your relationship with customer with view to keeping him/her over the longterm and probably get referals too.
3. gained knowledge of the work of the main dealer and whether they did actually sort the problem out at that first attempt.
Future.
In this technological day and age we cannot be all things to all men/women.
You are going to have to take steps to specialise and become known for your expertise in your chosen field.
The real reason for the fault has yet to be determined.
So it would not be right to refund for the part too soon, as you need to get confirmation from the supplier/manufacturer that sensor is either good or bad.
Perhaps you have car you can test it on for a few weeks.
So if the customer car suffers the problem again, the car will go back to the main dealer I presume, for further investigation - but how will you know.
I actually believe this is the time to write a letter/short report to the customer.
It will be the most unusual thing the customer will ever have seen, and it will give you an opportunity to get the facts across to the customer, and your proposed next course of action.
Next course of action should be to get the part checked and if faulty to get a refund.
You have worked on the customer car and reached a conclusion that a part (or sub-system of the car) needed attention. These hours have to be paid for.
Because you have written a good letter to the customer, and given them the expectation that a refund will be due, you can ask them the favour of feedback as to the conclusion of the work and repair at the main dealer.
If the main dealer work was good and the car continues to work properly, you should refund the sensor anyway, and perhaps make a contribution of a small refund on labour as gesture of goodwill as you had recommended the customer go the the main dealer.
You will have achieved 3 things by this approach.
1. knowledge of whether sensor good or bad.
2. improved your relationship with customer with view to keeping him/her over the longterm and probably get referals too.
3. gained knowledge of the work of the main dealer and whether they did actually sort the problem out at that first attempt.
Future.
In this technological day and age we cannot be all things to all men/women.
You are going to have to take steps to specialise and become known for your expertise in your chosen field.
SilverSaloon
MB Enthusiast
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- 1994 W124 E300D Estate, 1985 R107 280SL
I cant see why Tiff would need to refund the main dealer charges (the £400) - the dealer would have quoted (or should have) the customer for the repair and its up to them to accept it or not. if they wanted Tiff to refund them they should have contacted him and said there intentions of wanting the garage to pay rather than instructing the work to go ahead. it was the customer who agreed to the £400 bill, no one else.
Cracking discussion here, and some good feedback "from the other side" as was said earlier! As said before I wasn't personally involved in this case, but just wondered how a customer on the other side of the desk saw things.
Not sure what the outcome is yet, but I'll be sure to post any developments.
Not sure what the outcome is yet, but I'll be sure to post any developments.
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I must confess that I don't understand the owner's request to the OP's firm for monies paid to the main dealer - unless they're trying it on. Had the work carried out by the OP's firm caused damage or consequential loss then I could see some logic in such a claim, but in this case no damage was caused by the work that had previously been carried out, and the vehicle was in the same condition (i.e not working properly) when it was presented to the main dealer as it was when it was presented to the OP's firm.
Although the recommendation to the owner to take it to a main dealer was given, there was no onus on the owner to follow that advice. As such, whatever charge the main dealer made was as a result of a request by the car owner to fix the fault. As I see it, the only claim that the owner has against the OP's firm is that they charged £140 for fixing a fault which for whatever reason (and I would suggest that the precise reason is irrelevant unless there is an allegation that they had acted negligently or had carried out unnecessary work) recurred shortly after the repair was effected. As such, were I the owner of the vehicle I would be asking for my £140 back as it would have been reasonable to expect the OP's firm to guarantee their work and to have remedied the situation at their cost when the fault manifested itself again.
Although the recommendation to the owner to take it to a main dealer was given, there was no onus on the owner to follow that advice. As such, whatever charge the main dealer made was as a result of a request by the car owner to fix the fault. As I see it, the only claim that the owner has against the OP's firm is that they charged £140 for fixing a fault which for whatever reason (and I would suggest that the precise reason is irrelevant unless there is an allegation that they had acted negligently or had carried out unnecessary work) recurred shortly after the repair was effected. As such, were I the owner of the vehicle I would be asking for my £140 back as it would have been reasonable to expect the OP's firm to guarantee their work and to have remedied the situation at their cost when the fault manifested itself again.
jonnyboy
MB Enthusiast
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also worth pointing out when refunding the £140 that the main dealer charged £400 for exactly the same work - ie diagnose faulty part and replace,.......
The Hooded Claw
Active Member
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I had a convo with andy (See my post above) ref this this & he now does the following :-
Should a "High End" motor come in with a fault & he repairs it all is Ok if however the customer returns saying its still "Doing That" ect ect Andy now "OFFERS" a "Consultation" with the Local Main Dealer, & Sends the vehicle along with the faulty part he replaced to have it "Examined".
Should the part he replaced be shown to be faulty the Customer foots the "Consultation" bill at the main dealer If the part is part is shown to be "fully Functional" Andy foots the bill.
This has 2 important "side Effects"
1. the main dealer (in examining the vehicle) diagnoses the fault (BUT DOES NOT REPAIR IT)
2, Andy then proceeds to "repair" the vehicle under the diagnoses of the main dealer
This turns into a "WIN WIN situation in that if the part Andy fitted WAS faulty The main dealer foots the bill if it WASN'T faulty the main dealer has re-diagnosed the fault Andy cancels his Original invoice to the customer & re-invoices him for the repair carried out under the diagnoses of the main dealer
YES I know that does "Sound" complicated by it isn't & Andy aint out of pocket for chargin for a "Duff" repair!!!!
Should a "High End" motor come in with a fault & he repairs it all is Ok if however the customer returns saying its still "Doing That" ect ect Andy now "OFFERS" a "Consultation" with the Local Main Dealer, & Sends the vehicle along with the faulty part he replaced to have it "Examined".
Should the part he replaced be shown to be faulty the Customer foots the "Consultation" bill at the main dealer If the part is part is shown to be "fully Functional" Andy foots the bill.
This has 2 important "side Effects"
1. the main dealer (in examining the vehicle) diagnoses the fault (BUT DOES NOT REPAIR IT)
2, Andy then proceeds to "repair" the vehicle under the diagnoses of the main dealer
This turns into a "WIN WIN situation in that if the part Andy fitted WAS faulty The main dealer foots the bill if it WASN'T faulty the main dealer has re-diagnosed the fault Andy cancels his Original invoice to the customer & re-invoices him for the repair carried out under the diagnoses of the main dealer
YES I know that does "Sound" complicated by it isn't & Andy aint out of pocket for chargin for a "Duff" repair!!!!
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The best question of all is for the customer to question the main dealer why his bill is so expensive for the same job !
EDZ649
MB Enthusiast
We already know the answer to that, extortionate labour rates!
lil.smartie
Active Member
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Agree that as the car was fine when it left chances are that whatever caused the fault could still be there. On a Smart for eg we have seen a car fail on emissions at MOT time, exhaust replaced and it passes, next year fails again as the car is still chucking oil through the cat & causing it to fail all the customer sees is a 1 yr old exhaust that's failed must be the dealers fault....
Doubt you can prove anything though and a £140 refund is all that the customer can ask for as anything more is a 'consequential loss' if we sold just a part that then failed we wouldn't pay for labour to remove & re-fit but if we had fitted it then we would supply & fit replacement as that's the contract we had!
Kate
Doubt you can prove anything though and a £140 refund is all that the customer can ask for as anything more is a 'consequential loss' if we sold just a part that then failed we wouldn't pay for labour to remove & re-fit but if we had fitted it then we would supply & fit replacement as that's the contract we had!
Kate
