Re-Manufactured Engines

[Howard 22]

So why didn't you just go out and buy a second hand engine - and you have still not said what the original problem was.

Expect to pay for high quality professional work.

Hi Rorf,
First off this has never been about the cost. I picked this option because as you say, I expected to pay for high quality work. I came on here originally because I was questioning the quality of what had been done.
Regarding a second hand engine, I was offered a couple at around £1500. They had around 49k miles on them, which I was happy with, but none of the sellers were willing to verify the mileage. As they were out of insurance write off's I asked for the vehicle reg no's so that I could maybe check the MOT history on line and verify the mileage that way. I was told that this information could not be released. I'm not fitting the engine myself as I don't have the kit or facilities so I'm having to pay someone to do the work. Nightmare scenario therefore is to by a second hand engine with unverified mileage and ending up with a crock and having to repeat the exercise.
So I decided to bite the bullet and have mine remanufactured.
Sorry, This is turning into war a peace.
So what originally went wrong?
I was coming out of a T junction in 3rd, but was going to slow so dropped into second. The car made a noise as if I had changed gear without the clutch, severe loss of power and rough running. I was very close to home so I limped back and the engine was sounding very rough. I called out a mobile mechanic who initially found a split in the hose that connects to the inlet manifold. He thought initially that this was the problem, but ran a diagnostic check and found that no4 cyl injector was out of limits. So we replaced the hose and the injector and he took it for a run, but aborted that as from the noise he could hear from the bottom end he was worried he might put a rod through the block! I suppose I could have gone further into diagnosis, had the sump off (not easy from what I understand) but just decided to bite the bullet and have the engine fully sorted.
Since having the engine out, I have been cleaning up all of the ancillaries and what I have found is that on no 1 cyl, the inlet ports on the head, the manifold and plenum chamber at the intake end are all thick with black gunge. Not sure what that is about or why only on that cylinder, unless I had a valve problem???

 

[E55BOF]

Probably a good decision not to go with the second-hand engines. I wouldn't trust anybody who would not provide any information to help you verify mileage. There are plenty of honest scrappers, I dare say, but there are plenty of crooks too.

 

[hotrodder]

The Sunnen process is a new one on me. Totally unaware of this so I don't really know if they have done this to my engine.

From the mention of 'drawing silica to the surface of the bores' it's do with alusil or whatever other trade names are in use for a crankcase and/or cylinder sleeves cast from a hypereutectic flavour of an aluminium-silicon alloy. Hypereutectic basically means there's more silicon in it than can actually be dissolved in aluminium when it's solid and either by etching, use of special abrasives* and/or a combination of the two some of the ally is removed from the surface leaving it rich in silicon (or is it silica aka silicon dioxide?)

* I'm guessing the abrasive (maybe even suspended in liquid or in paste form?) would be used with a comformable backer and formulated so that it's not hard enough to remove silicon but will abrade the much softer aluminium and used as a final step after generally conventional bore finishing i.e. finish/hone it smooth and then remove miniscule amounts of ally exposing more silicon

 

[paulshep69]

From the mention of 'drawing silica to the surface of the bores' it's do with alusil or whatever other trade names are in use for a crankcase and/or cylinder sleeves cast from a hypereutectic flavour of an aluminium-silicon alloy. Hypereutectic basically means there's more silicon in it than can actually be dissolved in aluminium when it's solid and either by etching, use of special abrasives* and/or a combination of the two some of the ally is removed from the surface leaving it rich in silicon (or is it silica aka silicon dioxide?)

* I'm guessing the abrasive (maybe even suspended in liquid or in paste form?) would be used with a comformable backer and formulated so that it's not hard enough to remove silicon but will abrade the much softer aluminium and used as a final step after generally conventional bore finishing i.e. finish/hone it smooth and then remove miniscule amounts of ally exposing more silicon

Unless I'm very much mistaken, Sunnen is a brand name for specific honing machines and tooling, not a process that the metal is put through, is that correct?

 

[Merc Owner 2B]

I must say this is becoming a most enlightening thread.

Fantastic to see such knowledge on the forum from people willing to take time and share.

Great stuff! Thank you

 

[flango]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, Sunnen is a brand name for specific honing machines and tooling, not a process that the metal is put through, is that correct?

That's exactly as I understand it, the Sunnen process is no more than precision machining of the bore by CNC as described in their literature

http://www.sunnen.be/download/201107/Sunnen Presentation.pdf

 

[BFT]

Agree on mileage verification. All engines always seem to be low mileage in scrappers!

 

[jaymanek]

2.2K is not a rip off for this engine...

Second hand ones from decent suppliers are over £1500. As has been said mileage can never really be verified.

To go through an engine top to bottom replacing all the worn bits will cost £1000 in parts alone (even aftermarket)... Then add labour and then add the cost of acquiring the worn basic engine.

I would also agree that I wouldnt want to be fixing something that isnt broken.. So if the crank is well within limits, why would you want to start messing with it?
If its been treated well over its life, it shouldnt show any real wear.

Crewe Engines - Well they get a name for being the most expensive... We have heard of the odd problem (i think a thread on here recently) but then any business that is shipping out tonnes of work every day is probably going to have one or two go wrong... As far as I know they always deal with issues very efficiently.

We, i.e. my company Mercland, cannot really use them on a commercial basis as they are just too expensive for us, but for a one off personal investment, I would probably prefer to be safe in the knowledge that I have a fully gone over engine that should be as close to new as possible.

Another avenue worth noting is that MB are now offering engines and loads of other parts remanufactured. They have a Gen80 and a Gen50 scheme... Your local dealer will be able to quote you... Some of the prices are good...

 

[E270 Owner]

Pretty sure I used that in the late 80's to make my hair go blonde on holiday. (It didn't just made it go slightly less dark brown).

Just to clarify, Crewe say they have re-manufactured the engine, not reconditioned it. They say it has been returned to 'zero mileage' condition. They do not offer a 'reconditioning' service as far as I am aware. The Sunnen process is a new one on me. Totally unaware of this so I don't really know if they have done this to my engine.
This whole re-conditioning/re-manufacturing issue seems to contain a huge grey area. I spoke to a technical guy at Ivor Searle and he said they would re-bore and re-grind as a matter of course on a re-manufactured engine. Other websites I have seen say that they would only re-grind if the crank was out of limits. To confuse matters more, BSAU257 which covers re-manufacturing states that the block should be re-bored (or re-sleeved) and for the crank it states that it should be reground OR polished if within limits.
As far as the original fault goes, I agree it would have been good to know what went wrong but my own diagnosis (confirmed by the mechanic I use) was that I had a severe big end knock. I took the decision to have the engine remanufactured as from the descriptions I was given of this process it took the engine back to 'as new' condition. In that respect I was a little relaxed as to what went wrong as I knew the whole engine would be restored to more or less original.

From the mention of 'drawing silica to the surface of the bores' it's do with alusil or whatever other trade names are in use for a crankcase and/or cylinder sleeves cast from a hypereutectic flavour of an aluminium-silicon alloy. Hypereutectic basically means there's more silicon in it than can actually be dissolved in aluminium when it's solid and either by etching, use of special abrasives* and/or a combination of the two some of the ally is removed from the surface leaving it rich in silicon (or is it silica aka silicon dioxide?)

* I'm guessing the abrasive (maybe even suspended in liquid or in paste form?) would be used with a comformable backer and formulated so that it's not hard enough to remove silicon but will abrade the much softer aluminium and used as a final step after generally conventional bore finishing i.e. finish/hone it smooth and then remove miniscule amounts of ally exposing more silicon

Unless I'm very much mistaken, Sunnen is a brand name for specific honing machines and tooling, not a process that the metal is put through, is that correct?

That's exactly as I understand it, the Sunnen process is no more than precision machining of the bore by CNC as described in their literature

http://www.sunnen.be/download/201107/Sunnen Presentation.pdf

Honing Options for Hypereutectic Aluminum Cylinder Bores - Sunnen


The difference between normal honing and normal piston rings.

 

[280gee]

Hi Rorf,
First off this has never been about the cost. I picked this option because as you say, I expected to pay for high quality work. I came on here originally because I was questioning the quality of what had been done.

First off I share your disquiet, and that's having dealt with Crewe Engines in the long-past and also fairly recently. In my case a collision with a badger and possibly parts of that creature ending up in the engine started the trouble.

After a quite a bit of research and excellent advice and help from Olly @ Prestige I decided to go with a replacement engine. (320Cdi) My choice of company (Crewe) by the way.

I found Crewe Engines customer approach friendly enough but trying to get information on WHAT exactly had been found wrong with my engine proved impossible. Their responses were at the very best "opaque" and left me with little confidence that my money was well-spent.

However some many thousands of miles later all seems well, so only time will tell in the long run I suppose. I don't know about you but the engineer in me just hates being in THAT position.

All you can really do I suppose is leave the engine unfitted and press and press until you get the answers that you want and that you and I should have been given in the first place!!

GL

 

[rorf]

With these Alusil cylinders it is not quite a simple question of reboring - more often then not if there is damage to the cylinder bore then the block is replaced, not that cylinder damage is very common with Merdedes aluminium blocks.

There are process where the cylinder is built up and then bored but long term effectiveness is debatable.

Also the cranks are so well manufactured that wear or damage on the journals is also not very common.

After all this is why we drive Mercedes

Crewes reputation and longevity in the game is unquestionable so why haggle.

 

[E270 Owner]

With these Alusil cylinders it is not quite a simple question of reboring - more often then not if there is damage to the cylinder bore then the block is replaced, not that cylinder damage is very common with Merdedes aluminium blocks.

There are process where the cylinder is built up and then bored but long term effectiveness is debatable.

Also the cranks are so well manufactured that wear or damage on the journals is also not very common.

After all this is why we drive Mercedes

Crewes reputation and longevity in the game is unquestionable so why haggle.

Please read the link i provided above

If the cylinder is damaged a new liner is inserted.

" It should be noted, too, that rebuilders have the option to use a replacement, press-fit hypereutectic aluminum cylinder liner available from Kolbenschmidt,
if a cylinder is damaged beyond the point where it can be repaired by over-boring or honing. The honing process described here will work with this replacement liner, too."

Cylinder damage is common on CDI engines.

The rest of your post ..................

Give me your phone number and you can explain to all the customers with re-manufactured CDI engines they are imagining it

 

[280gee]

With these Alusil cylinders it is not quite a simple question of reboring - more often then not if there is damage to the cylinder bore then the block is replaced, not that cylinder damage is very common with Merdedes aluminium blocks.

There are process where the cylinder is built up and then bored but long term effectiveness is debatable.

Also the cranks are so well manufactured that wear or damage on the journals is also not very common.

After all this is why we drive Mercedes

What you say is true according to my experience, but if OP had damage to his cylinders then that's what he wanted/needed to know in order to feel comfortable with Crewe Engines service.

As far as Mercedes quality goes, many things were right engineering wise but as time goes on... a person can see how parts only fit for living room environments have been *fitted-to-fail* in the harsh environment of motoring. It's the modern way, it seems.

 

[Howard 22]

From the mention of 'drawing silica to the surface of the bores' it's do with alusil or whatever other trade names are in use for a crankcase and/or cylinder sleeves cast from a hypereutectic flavour of an aluminium-silicon alloy. Hypereutectic basically means there's more silicon in it than can actually be dissolved in aluminium when it's solid and either by etching, use of special abrasives* and/or a combination of the two some of the ally is removed from the surface leaving it rich in silicon (or is it silica aka silicon dioxide?)

* I'm guessing the abrasive (maybe even suspended in liquid or in paste form?) would be used with a comformable backer and formulated so that it's not hard enough to remove silicon but will abrade the much softer aluminium and used as a final step after generally conventional bore finishing i.e. finish/hone it smooth and then remove miniscule amounts of ally exposing more silicon

Obviously a lot more to this than meets the eye!! Thanks for the info. Fascinating stuff!

 

[ray_hennig]

To go through an engine top to bottom replacing all the worn bits will cost £1000 in parts alone (even aftermarket)...

Interesting point.

I Crewe Engines re-do an MB engine, what replacement parts do they use? I've developed a major "anti" against anything but MB parts so I'd like some assurance.

Any comments please.

Best to all.

RayH

 

[Howard 22]

Hi all,
My request for information has resulted in receiving a build sheet. Frankly, there are still more questions than answers. Maybe I just need to fit the bloody thing and take them on reputation!!
I don't think I can copy what they send my but a synopsis is as follows

Parts Fitted
a) Block
New Pistons
New Mains
New Big ends
New sprayers
Existing oil pump retained

b) Head
New guides
New inlet valves
New exhaust valves
Skimmed
Crack tested
Pressure tested

c) Block
Line bored ?? (they originally said the block had been 'honed') I'm querying this one!
New Main bolts

To answer Ray H, they quote the make of valves guides and pistons as 'KS' ???

 

[ray_hennig]

To answer Ray H, they quote the make of valves guides and pistons as 'KS' ???

Thank you.

Could be KolbenSchmidt. But they say their valves are from TRW Engine Components.

R

 

[E270 Owner]

I dont like the look of that "re-manufactured" parts list.

 

[Howard 22]

I dont like the look of that "re-manufactured" parts list.

Yeh, I know what you mean. They also say they always fit new 'high quality timing chain(s)' as standard, however it doesn't show on the build sheet.
This saga almost smacks of trying to ask Rolls Royce in the old days what HP their engines produced. The question was considered too vulgar to answer!!!