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Stop expanding the ULEZ to all the London boroughs in 2023

Didn't I read the other day that people were buying 30 / 40 year old cars as they are exempt from ULEZ?

This article is about Londoners buying 40-year-old cars, though is behind a paywall: The drivers using classic cars to beat Sadiq Khan’s Ulez charges

I do see the trend happening around here, one neighbour has a series 2 landrover (often seen on axle stands or with the bonnet open) and yesterday there was a Citroen DS in my street. Others have W123s (and a lot of bills, presumably, given that these are all cars parked out in all weathers) and there are several Saab 99s and Volvo Amazons around the streets near me. Those may be the best choice, perhaps more reliable than most cars of the 70s/80s?
 
As for pollution... there's data to show that NOx emissions from car exhausts in built-up areas are causing health problems. Why dismiss it?

I'm not dismissing it. I'm suggesting that correlation is not causation. Pollution levels are dropping year over year for the past 30 years and we've recently gone though a pandemic that's resulted in many people changing their work and travel habits. Ulez will likely have do nothing more than raise revenue.

The alternative you suggest is the red herring that's always used to sneak in these type of taxes but imposing a heavier burden on people. If they wanted a real solution, they'd apply a usage tax instead of an ownership tax.
 
As a general concept I do not agree with retrospective rule changes that penalise people who purchased goods in good faith. Particularly when cars are concerned because they are an essential part of functioning in modern society and incredibly expensive. Folk put a lot of their hard cash down to own and run a vehicle. Lots of folk are utterly dependent on them. With time the number of polluting vehicles will just decline.

Being honest as an EV owner I am noticing that after 3-4y of ownership the battery does not perform as well. Keeping an old classic ICE running for 50y is going to be more green that swapping to a new EV every 3-4y.
 
As a general concept I do not agree with retrospective rule changes that penalise people who purchased goods in good faith. Particularly when cars are concerned because they are an essential part of functioning in modern society and incredibly expensive. Folk put a lot of their hard cash down to own and run a vehicle. Lots of folk are utterly dependent on them. With time the number of polluting vehicles will just decline...

Point taken. What would you consider a reasonable notice period for car owners, when a change in legislation is due? (On the premise that you are not proposing that nothing should ever change).
 
Why give a notice period?

Shouldn't changes be announced well in advance, to give people time to prepare? The ban on ICE car sales was announced 15 years ahead of effective date.
 
Point taken. What would you consider a reasonable notice period for car owners, when a change in legislation is due? (On the premise that you are not proposing that nothing should ever change).
I don't live in London, but I'd be happy with proposals that don't create an enormous surveillance State (and we know that when States have these sorts of intrusive powers, at some point they end up abusing them compared with their original 'purpose'), and I'd also be happy with something that was less expensive to implement.

E.g.
A tightening of car emissions regulations at point of sale.

An entry/exit fee to 'the zone' (not surveillance whilst in there).

An attempt to split car charging out from normal grid draw from your house charger. This can't be technical difficult, and most houses will not be charging EVs any time soon.

'Incentive' car taxes based on vehicle registered location, pushing polluting cars out of undesirable areas.

Charging based on mileage e.g. come MOT time.

I am happy to have these type of measures and sacrifice more immediate (authoritarian) changes, and allow the improvements to come more organically.

Yes, the above are not perfect and a determined person could fiddle them, but in the round they would go a long way to combating the environmental issues. No policy is a good use of Public (Gov) resources if you're plan at the outset is to make 100% sure 100% of the people comply 100% with the rules 100% of the time. Especially with something like this where 90%+ of a shift does wonders.

Some will say not hard or fast enough. Some will say stop interfering.
I think a more balanced approach, most importantly protecting people's freedom of movement without surveillance: it's this last point that gives me so much concern, and will only get worse and worse.
 
Point taken. What would you consider a reasonable notice period for car owners, when a change in legislation is due? (On the premise that you are not proposing that nothing should ever change).
Prospective notice seems fine. As in by this date new cars must be CO2<x or no more new ICE sales. What they are doing though seems punitive, will hit poorest the most. Reality is old cars say >20y old are still running because they are looked after by careful owners.
 
Prospective notice seems fine. As in by this date new cars must be CO2<x or no more new ICE sales. What they are doing though seems punitive, will hit poorest the most. Reality is old cars say >20y old are still running because they are looked after by careful owners.

We had two Honda cars in the family, a 2002 Honda Jazz that we gifted to a young man who did a job for us, and a 2004 CR-V that is now with our Welsh in-laws. Both were used around London for a while, and both were ULEZ compliant. It's not that difficult to find cheap ULEZ-compliant cars, and I don't think that ULEZ is punitive for the poor.
 
Large scale protest planned against this:


Some London boroughs have also refused permission for TFL to install the cameras.

Also an interesting watch

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Sadiq Khan accused of ignoring 5,000 votes opposing ULEZ expansion


Sadiq Khan accused of ignoring 5,000 votes opposing ULEZ expansion
Excluding 5000 votes to get the opposition percentage down from 62.4% to 59.4% 'because some of the responses looked like they were cut and paste".
Yes Khan. People lead busy lives, and when the people get a little bit organized to stand up democratically against things they don't want, sometimes there is a 'copy and paste' because they know the objection has been well written and shouldn't need to spend the time crafting their own bespoke objection.
If the rules he wanted during the voting were 'if you object, you need to object in your own words, and any words you write that bear a striking similarity to written objections from other voters will be removed and not counted'. But even though that's what he wants, the rules on objections I'm sure weren't set out like that because it is utterly ridiculous and totally undemocratic.
I'd expect nothing less than this filthy manipulation from him.
 
How unusual that there is such a revolt against something designed to make the cities air cleaner. If you can’t afford a Euro 6 diesel then Euro 5 petrols are plentiful and very affordable - with the current ~30p difference in cost per litre the consumption savings of diesel around town are minimum.
 
How unusual that there is such a revolt against something designed to make the cities air cleaner. If you can’t afford a Euro 6 diesel then Euro 5 petrols are plentiful and very affordable - with the current ~30p difference in cost per litre the consumption savings of diesel around town are minimum.
I think that's a pretty singularly focused view on the issues.

Maybe it's not against the cleaner air; it might be against the surveillance state method of achieving it?
Or maybe it's against the timescales?
Or maybe it's against the undemocratic way in which it's being implemented.

The good people of London aren't really able to meaningfully represent their views and wishes in this project I suspect, but one thing they probably agree on in the majority is that cleaner air is a good thing, if done in an appropriate way? (which they obviously don't think this is)
 
I think that's a pretty singularly focused view on the issues.

Maybe it's not against the cleaner air; it might be against the surveillance state method of achieving it?
Or maybe it's against the timescales?
Or maybe it's against the undemocratic way in which it's being implemented.

The good people of London aren't really able to meaningfully represent their views and wishes in this project I suspect, but one thing they probably agree on in the majority is that cleaner air is a good thing, if done in an appropriate way? (which they obviously don't think this is)

But won't the good people of London be shooting themselves in the foot if they reject a good thing only because it was achieved in a way that they consider bad?
 
which they obviously don't think this is
because it doesn’t suit them as they don’t want to/can’t change their car to a compliant one.
 
it might be against the surveillance state method of achieving it?
Oh please… there’s already thousands of ANPR cameras and millions of CCTV cameras all around the country…

ULEZ enforcement would literally just show that you entered the zone on a said day… 🤦‍♂️
 
But won't the good people of London be shooting themselves in the foot if they reject a good thing only because it was achieved in a way that they consider bad?

Nobody ever shoots themselves in the foot by rejecting an unfair tax.
 

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