Stop expanding the ULEZ to all the London boroughs in 2023

[ALFAitalia]

You will be able to run those on petrol for many years to come...motorcycles and commercial vehicles and even lawn mowers will need fuel for the foreseeable future.......There will be millions of ICE cars on the roads for decades after 2030.
Even if 1.5m all-electric cars are sold every year between now and 2030 (so thats pretty much all new cars.....highly unlikely), they will still only amount to less than a third of all the cars on the road......of nearly 40 million registered UK cars. That means by 2030, the majority of cars on UK roads will still be petrol or diesel. And an awful lot of petrol, diesel, hybrid and plug-in hybrid cars will be sold between now and 2030.

There will doubtless be hard-core petrolheads like me who won’t give up their internal combustion engine cars, either because they don’t want to or because electric cars are seen as expensive and out of their price range.

 

[sgregory124]

You will be able to run those on petrol for many years to come...motorcycles and commercial vehicles and even lawn mowers will need fuel for the foreseeable future.......There will be millions of ICE cars on the roads for decades after 2030.
Even if 1.5m all-electric cars are sold every year between now and 2030 (so thats pretty much all new cars.....highly unlikely), they will still only amount to less than a third of all the cars on the road......of nearly 40 million registered UK cars. That means by 2030, the majority of cars on UK roads will still be petrol or diesel. And an awful lot of petrol, diesel, hybrid and plug-in hybrid cars will be sold between now and 2030.

There will doubtless be hard-core petrolheads like me who won’t give up their internal combustion engine cars, either because they don’t want to or because electric cars are seen as expensive and out of their price range.

I don't plan on giving mine up anytime soon, the only thing that'll force me to get rid, is a planned move to Ireland in the next 5-7 years - whereupon i'll be driving an SUV of some description (or at the very least something that has suspension to cope with Irish roads!).

 

[markjay]

Man drives electric car 350 miles to see real cost and 'numbers didn't add up'

Steven Smith wanted to find out just how easy it is to charge an electric car and what it costs but found that using the eco-friendly vehicle came with a hefty price tag

www.mirror.co.uk

Some rookie mistakes there. Understandly, people are still finding their feet with the new technology. I don't blame him, I have to admit that when I got my EV I was as ignorant as he was, it took a few months of ownership before I got to grips with it and understood how it works, what to expect, and how to avoid the pitfalls. In case you wonder why I bought into tech that I didn't understand, the answer is that a colleague at work got his Model X two years earlier, and while I was very sceptical at first (charging, range, etc), he seemed to be getting on quite well with his car, which gave me the confidence to get one for myself knowing I'll just figure it out later.

 

[sgregory124]

Some rookie mistakes there. Understandly, people are still finding their feet with the new technology. I don't blame him, I have to admit that when I got my EV I was as ignorant as he was, it took a few months of ownership before I got to grips with it and understood how it works, what to expect, and how to avoid the pitfalls. In case you wonder why I bought into tech that I didn't understand, the answer is that a colleague at work got his Model X two years earlier, and while I was very sceptical at first (charging, range, etc), he seemed to be getting on quite well with his car, which gave me the confidence to get one for myself knowing I'll just figure it out later.

Bit of an expensive gamble to 'just figure it out later' for most people right now....

 

[markjay]

You will be able to run those on petrol for many years to come...motorcycles and commercial vehicles and even lawn mowers will need fuel for the foreseeable future.......There will be millions of ICE cars on the roads for decades after 2030.
Even if 1.5m all-electric cars are sold every year between now and 2030 (so thats pretty much all new cars.....highly unlikely), they will still only amount to less than a third of all the cars on the road......of nearly 40 million registered UK cars. That means by 2030, the majority of cars on UK roads will still be petrol or diesel. And an awful lot of petrol, diesel, hybrid and plug-in hybrid cars will be sold between now and 2030.

There will doubtless be hard-core petrolheads like me who won’t give up their internal combustion engine cars, either because they don’t want to or because electric cars are seen as expensive and out of their price range.

I agree in principle, but this is true only if nothing else changes. However, the death of ICE cars might get accelerated if taxation is increased in order to force people into giving them up, and/or if petrol stations will start disappearing due to becoming not commercially viable, and/or garages will stop servicing and repairing them because the mechanics who know how to do this all retired while the young techs only want to train on EVs. I'm not saying that this is what will happen, just that it could happen.

 

[ChipChop]

I agree in principle, but this is true only if nothing else changes. However, the death of ICE cars might get accelerated if taxation is increased in order to force people into giving them up, and/or if petrol stations will start disappearing due to becoming not commercially viable, and/or garages will stop servicing and repairing them because the mechanics who know how to do this all retired while the young techs only want to train on EVs. I'm not saying that this is what will happen, just that it could happen.

Vegetable oil will always be commercially viable. New or used (how's that for being environmentally friendly).

Why would 'young techs' only want to train on EV's when these connected devices can self diagnose/update and apparently need next to no maintainance anyway?

 

[neilrr]

Some rookie mistakes there.

Which are?

 

[markjay]

Bit of an expensive gamble to 'just figure it out later' for most people right now....

Agreed, and if you don't know what you're doing (regarding EVs), don't get one. In my case, as I said my colleague had his two years earlier, he was regularly driving it to business meetings outside London etc, which gave me the confidence that I'll manage having one of these.

 

[alabbasi]

LOL....imagine if that was actually possible...no need for EVs after all!!!!

Hindsight.... It's funny now, but there were politicians at the time telling us this. Like there are politicians feeding you Ulez nonsense today.

 

[markjay]

Which are?

OK, just remember that you did ask....

Firstly, it's difficult to tell from the article to what extent the owner was actually being naive, and to what extent the author of the article added their own input in order to 'spice things up' in good old tabloid style.

Then, the quoted WLTP range for an EV is an average, while the actual range will vary up or down considerably depending on circumstances (driving speed, ambient temperature, driving mode, electric consumers in use such as heating or cooling, etc). I posted before that the WLTP range for my EV is 280 miles, and in winter I'm typically getting 250 miles, or even as low as 220 miles if driving on the motorway in sub-zero temperatures with the heater on, while in summer I get 340 miles when driving around town. So, having driven his EV on the motorway (presumably at 70 mph) for the first time and being disappointed with the actual range points to lack of understanding of the product he bought.

Next, there's an erroneous comment regarding charging the battery to 100%, the article incorrectly says that it 'degrades the battery'. What degrades the battery is if it is left standing for a long period while charged to 100%, which is why manufacturers recommend against toping-up the EV to 100% at every opportunity and then leaving it parked on the drive (old habit from ICE cars). If you are not planning to use the car in the short term, then you should only charge it to 80%, to prevent the car for being left parked with a full charge for too long. However, charging the battery to 100% before a long journey is absolutely fine, and in fact, if you do not do any long journeys, then it is recommended to charge the battery to 100% anyway at least once a month, apparently this is required for battery longevity (something to do with balancing the battery cells).

Now, regarding the long hours if research and route planning... a quick visit to any EV forum would have saved him the bother. People who regularly do long journeys in EVs use the ABRP app (A Better Route Planner). This app connects directly to the car's BMS (Battery Management System) and collects real-time data (either via ODBII Bluetooth dongle, or directly via the 'connected car' feature if supported). The app plans an optimal route including charging stops and it is very accurate, it's the Waze of the EV world, if you like. Took me 3 seconds to get the quickest optimal route from London to Edinburgh including charging stops (but I am yet to make this journey...). Additionally, the app corrects the route on-the-fly based on the car's real-time data, traffic condition and availability of chargers.

Next, according to the article, the chap 'researched' the route himself, and the charging took longer than expected. One thing to note (and that ABRP takes into account), is that BMS systems (in both EVs and ICE cars, BTW), perform fast charging only up to 80%, and then revert to trickle-charging up to 100%. On a long trip, your journey will be quicker overall if you only charge mid-route to 80%, instead of to 100%, because the last 20% of charging will actually delay your journey and make it slower overall.

Then, some EVs will have a battery preconditioning system, which uses a PTR heater to warm-up the battery to optimal temperature for fast charging prior to arrival at the charger, to thus cutting charging times to bare minimum. Again, this is a feature that you need to be aware of and know how to use (varies by manufacturer, it's actually quite a complex algorithm to maximise range).

And last, he may have bought the wrong EV for his needs. EVs from different manufacturers vary greatly in charging speed. Only a few EVs currently use the super-fast 800v system (as opposed to the slower 400v), so if long journeys are important to you, then you should prioritise the mid-route charging speed over other aspects when choosing an EV. Sadly (as the psychologist Arieli said in a lecture about 'buyer's remorse' syndrome), most consumers carry-out research after they already bought the product.

In summary, anyone who knows nothing about cars and then hops into an ICE car will probably have an equally long list of 'complaints'... just look at this forum to appreciate how much collective ICE car knowledge we have between us. EVs are new and owners will need to get to know the technology before they can make optimal use of it. Otherwise, they'll just keep complaining and feed the tabloids while they do that.

 

[markjay]

Why would 'young techs' only want to train on EV's when these connected devices can self diagnose/update and apparently need next to no maintainance anyway?

Firstly, I didn't say it will definitely happen. What I said was that it could happen.

Then, let's say the year is 2035, you're an 18 years old school leaver and looking for a career, you know that sale of new ICE cars is now banned, what are would you chose to train in? It seems plausible to me that there will be a shortage in ICE knowledge and skills as the years go by, which - if it happens - will make ICE car ownership even more difficult.

 

[sgregory124]

The route planner is interesting but under 99% of circumstances, I want to go from point A, to point B in the fastest time (or shortest distance).

This is the aspect of EV ownership that rubs ICE owners up the wrong way. Why would I want (or should I have to) to plan my route around charging? I have a car to go the route I want, when I want, how I want - its my choice. Again, another example of the technology not being there and because of that, owning an EV becomes limiting in a way that ICE cars are not.

 

[alabbasi]

Keeping older cars going maybe environmentally friendly in some respects but has nothing to do with localised air pollution.

Ulez has nothing to do with localized air pollution. I get off at acton town to visit my parents house. It's a 20 min walk westbound. I don't notice a difference in air quality when I walk across the north circular.

If it was about air quality, it would during certain times of the day, or year when the air quality is particularly bad. That's how measuring air quality works.

 

[markjay]

The route planner is interesting but under 99% of circumstances, I want to go from point A, to point B in the fastest time (or shortest distance).

This is the aspect of EV ownership that rubs ICE owners up the wrong way. Why would I want (or should I have to) to plan my route around charging? I have a car to go the route I want, when I want, how I want - its my choice. Again, another example of the technology not being there and because of that, owning an EV becomes limiting in a way that ICE cars are not.

You could equally argue that your old Nokia phone back-in-the-day held its charge for a whole week before needing charging, and you could drop it on the floor without smashing the screen, and you'd be right. Indeed some people do stick to their Nokias to this day and won't hear of a smartphone. However, the question isn't simply what specific features you're losing when adapting a new technology, but whether the new technology is overall more beneficial than the one it replaces.

As for ABRP.... my point was that simply jumping into the driver's seat of an EV and using it in the same way that he used to drive his ICE car before, is always going to be suboptimal. Technology that we can use out-of-the-box without understanding and without any learning is a great idea, but we're not there yet.

 

[ChipChop]

Firstly, I didn't say it will definitely happen. What I said was that it could happen.

Then, let's say the year is 2035, you're an 18 years old school leaver and looking for a career, you know that sale of new ICE cars is now banned, what are would you chose to train in? It seems plausible to me that there will be a shortage in ICE knowledge and skills as the years go by, which - if it happens - will make ICE car ownership even more difficult.

No it will not happen. Politicians who continue to push the banning of ICE will be voted out to be replaced by politicians who recognise it is wholly unreasonable to deny the majorities right to travel freely and affordably in this country.

Pretty sure facilitating satisfying careers as EV mechanics is not part of the algorithm. Remote updates, approved dealer only parts supply and swap out does not sound at all interesting. Young people are still into old cars, not least because EV's are so expensive yet as dull as dishwater.

 

[markjay]

No it will not happen. Politicians who continue to push the banning of ICE will be voted out to be replaced by politicians who recognise it is wholly unreasonable to deny the majorities right to travel freely and affordably in this country.

Even assuming that you have a valid point, do keep in mind that this is a motoring forum and we're all engaged here in a heated debate, but do you really think that the average Brit cares that much about EVs to actually base their ince-in-five-years vote purely on this issue....? EVs isn't Brexit, and governments won't be voted-in or voted-out in the back of this issue.

 

[markjay]

Pretty sure facilitating satisfying careers as EV mechanics is not part of the algorithm. Remote updates, approved dealer only parts supply and swap out does not sound at all interesting. Young people are still into old cars, not least because EV's are so expensive yet as dull as dishwater.

Personally I've always found fax machines to be fascinating (truly), but do you really see young people learning how to fix them these days, purely because the technology is fascinating, and with no consideration of the fact that very few of these machines remain in circulation thus making earning a living as a faximile technician very difficult?

 

[Dickster]

You could equally argue that your old Nokia phone back-in-the-day held its charge for a whole week before needing charging, and you could drop it on the floor without smashing the screen, and you'd be right. Indeed some people do stick to their Nokias to this day and won't hear of a smartphone. However, the question isn't simply what specific features you're losing when adapting a new technology, but whether the new technology is overall more beneficial than the one it replaces.

As for ABRP.... my point was that simply jumping into the driver's seat of an EV and using it in the same way that he used to drive his ICE car before, is always going to be suboptimal. Technology that we can use out-of-the-box without understanding and without any learning is a great idea, but we're not there yet.

That’s not really the same at all.

 

[Dickster]

Some more opposition

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[ALFAitalia]

Personally I've always found fax machines to be fascinating (truly), but do you really see young people learning how to fix them these days, purely because the technology is fascinating, and with no consideration of the fact that very few of these machines remain in circulation thus making earning a living as a faximile technician very difficult?

We still use them at work....only recently replaced it!