Stop expanding the ULEZ to all the London boroughs in 2023

[markjay]

Erm - the V8s don't put out lots of NOx and soot particulates, which is supposedly what this is all about. Remember - you're the one that's reminded people of this several times in this thread, this is apparently all about local air quality not 'the environment' as a whole.

Yes but they burn lots of lots of petrol which is made from OIL - the Devil's nectar. The rich are allowed to burn as much of it as they want, while the poor have to make do with a 1.0L VW Up - Capitalism at its worst.

 

[Tonygw]

Is the vigilantly gang still removing's the ULEZ ANPR cameras around the area... ?

I don't normally support that kind of activity but in this case..... ;-)

 

[TC350]

Is the vigilantly gang still removing's the ULEZ ANPR cameras around the area... ?

I don't normally support that kind of activity but in this case..... ;-)

Whereas I’m not so keen on my taxes being used to replace/repair the damage done by the vandals.

 

[TeddyRuxpin]

I guess it depends how nefarious you think the use of ANPR cameras all over London tracking every aspect of your life.

If we lived in a mad max world where they were armed guns shooting innocent people you'd want them taken down regardless of what the government say. If you think they're harmless/fine or even a great thing to have, you'd worry more about your tax money.

So it depends where you sit on that spectrum...

 

[Tonygw]

I suspect each ANPR camera costs £12.50 ??

 

[Gollom]

Sorted!

 

[markjay]

I guess it depends how nefarious you think the use of ANPR cameras all over London tracking every aspect of your life.

If we lived in a mad max world where they were armed guns shooting innocent people you'd want them taken down regardless of what the government say. If you think they're harmless/fine or even a great thing to have, you'd worry more about your tax money.

So it depends where you sit on that spectrum...

Tough one. The theory is that the more Totalitarian the regime, the lower the crime rate (though I don't know if this is actually supported by statistical data?). One example is "The Land of the Free", where - thanks to their strong constitution - they have an ongoing gun crime epidemic, including mass shootings at a scale not seen anywhere else.

On this spectrum, I am leaning slightly towards the 'Totalitarian' side, i.e. I think that here in the UK we have sufficiently-strong Democratic institutions (two houses of Parliament and an independent judiciary), to allow us to benefit from the additional public safety provided by tighter government controls without risking our basic Democratic values. This is my personal opinion - not everyone agrees, obviously - some people will not trust anyone in authority if their lives depended on it.

The bottom line is that - as a general rule - as far as I am concerned, there's no issue with the government installing cameras in our streets and other public areas.

 

[Flyinspanner]

If totalitarian states were the answer, there would be queues of people waiting to get residents visas for North Korea….

….and Russia and China would be crime free

the issue that does perplex, is that why on earth are CCTV images so poor. (Blurred) If they are being installed at least make sure they are fit for purpose

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Excluding commercials, non compliant Euro 3 petrol cars are so old that I highly doubt anyone running a car that old (enthusiasts aside) will be able to get anywhere close to buying a brand new car even with that £2000.....which isn't really £2000 pounds as it's £2000 minus the value of their old car....very few of which will be worth zero. If they could afford to they probably would not still have their Euro 3 car still on the drive in the first place.....

That's not fair. You shouldn't call out this political "scrappage" nonsense which Labour and Green politicians have been spouting for years.

It's meant to distract those of small mind, and get the working class off the roads and back onto trains and buses.

(Waterloo station still operating at a gobsmacking 47% of its 2019 traffic levels)

We get what we voted for.

.

 

[clk320x]

Whereas I’m not so keen on my taxes being used to replace/repair the damage done by the vandals.

Yep, where does it end?

The ‘I can’t afford it, so it shouldn’t happen’ brigade won’t stop at this.

I’m all for reasoned debate, but criminal damage when you don’t get your way is simply disgusting - and of course the govt would never give in to this as it would simply happen more and more if they did so.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The bottom line is that - as a general rule - as far as I am concerned, there's no issue with the government installing cameras in our streets and other public areas.

To be fair, anyone can be tracked anywhere, as long as they've got their phone switched on.

Tis only the Baddies who are driving around with their phones switched off.

 

[TeddyRuxpin]

To be fair, anyone can be tracked anywhere, as long as they've got their phone switched on.

Tis only the Baddies who are driving around with their phones switched off.

Mobile phone tracking aside, there's tons of facial tracking happening right now: London’s Met Police is expanding its use of facial recognition technology

Hell, when you walk into ASDA there's a green rectangle around your face on the security cameras just as you walk in. Then there are TWO cameras on the self serve checkouts. This all happened since lockdown.

It's my opinion that anybody who believes that this is primarily about improving local air quality not about surveillance and replacing lost revenue is extremely naive.

 

[TeddyRuxpin]

Don't click the link on 'Mobile phone' - I didn't put that link in the above post, it's the bloody auto ads that are all over the site. Seems like we're stuck with them!

 

[Dryce]

On this spectrum, I am leaning slightly towards the 'Totalitarian' side, i.e. I think that here in the UK we have sufficiently-strong Democratic institutions (two houses of Parliament and an independent judiciary), to allow us to benefit from the additional public safety provided by tighter government controls without risking our basic Democratic values. This is my personal opinion - not everyone agrees, obviously - some people will not trust anyone in authority if their lives depended on it.

My view is that *my* personal freedoms are getting more and more constrained by what is going on.

I think democracy is protected by a certain level of objective liberalism and political altruism.

What we are seeing in modern UK is that liberalism isn't what it was - it's become dangerously self righteous while losing its objectivity - and there is less altruism.

The ULEZ and LEZs are symptomatic of this. The Covid restrictions were leverage along the route. The muddle in the likes of the NHS over gender are symptomatic of a loss of intellectual capacity in 'the system'.

As a parallel example - I have a right to roam in Scotland - a good thing - except watching fences and barriers go up and restrictions where I can drive or go then I feel that the slogan as such is one thing but the practice is the opposite.

I would say that in the last 30 years I think I trust political authority less than I did. I'm now very suspicious of the mindset of those on all political sides in Parliament and in Holyrood.

 

[Dryce]

It's my opinion that anybody who believes that this is primarily about improving local air quality not about surveillance and replacing lost revenue is extremely naive.

There are plenty of cameras about without needing to implement the ULEZ. So I'll disagree with you on this. It's not really about air quality - it is not about surveillance - it is simply about the thrill of imposition of self righteous controls on the majority by a political peer group who want to assert themselves and with the added bonus of potential revenue.

 

[TeddyRuxpin]

The non-ANPR cameras that are about require a LOT more human/man power to track a car - it's done manually. ANPR automates and cuts this down dramatically. There's no such thing as 'plenty' of cameras about, AI and automated tracking is the future.

 

[markjay]

My view is that *my* personal freedoms are getting more and more constrained by what is going on.

I think democracy is protected by a certain level of objective liberalism and political altruism.

What we are seeing in modern UK is that liberalism isn't what it was - it's become dangerously self righteous while losing its objectivity - and there is less altruism.

The ULEZ and LEZs are symptomatic of this. The Covid restrictions were leverage along the route. The muddle in the likes of the NHS over gender are symptomatic of a loss of intellectual capacity in 'the system'.

As a parallel example - I have a right to roam in Scotland - a good thing - except watching fences and barriers go up and restrictions where I can drive or go then I feel that the slogan as such is one thing but the practice is the opposite.

I would say that in the last 30 years I think I trust political authority less than I did. I'm now very suspicious of the mindset of those on all political sides in Parliament and in Holyrood.

OK, but are these fences and barriers being erected by government agencies, or by private landowners?

If the latter, then I would argue that this is a separate issue and unrelated to the issues surrounding excessive government intervention in our daily lives.

 

[markjay]

To be fair, anyone can be tracked anywhere, as long as they've got their phone switched on.

Tis only the Baddies who are driving around with their phones switched off.

It's not just ANPR cameras... and it's not just mobile phones...:

'Crossbow killer shot retired lecturer in stomach' trial hears

Terence Whall has denied murder at Mold Crown Court after a bolt pierced through several of Gerald Corrigan's organs at his farmhouse near Holyhead in April.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"...police used tracking data from stolen Land Rover to catch him.."

A man was convicted of killing a Welsh retiree with a crossbow, and prosecutors said his Land Rover data and Amazon purchase history helped give him away

Investigators suspected Terence Whall, 39, of the murder after obtaining data from his partner's Land Rover and his Amazon purchase history.

www.insider.com

"...his Land Rover data and Amazon purchase history helped give him away..."

"Wear a hoodie or a baseball cap hiding your face, always look down, and use public transport while paying cash for the ticket. Lose the phone and don't use any bank cards." - free advice from The MJ Academy for Budding Criminals

 

[ALFAitalia]

My view is that *my* personal freedoms are getting more and more constrained by what is going on.

Are they though?....i cant think of one of my personal freedoms thats affect by CCTV etc.......just my finances getting hurt if I drive into an ULEZ!!!

 

[Dryce]

OK, but are these fences and barriers being erected by government agencies, or by private landowners?

My issue is that I wander about to undertake urban and landscape photography. Locations I used to have access to years ago are now inaccessible or impeded. I can't get access to viewpoints. There is more passive blocking as well - some sites I used to visit are impeded by bushes and trees. Viewing at and around locations may be made deliberately difficult.

The likes of heritage agencies have become more possessive of their areas. Places you could wander 20 or 30 years ago are now access controlled. (Some implicitly - where public right to access is sort of obscured).

In the past we had high streets - now with modern retail parks and malls we have privately owned and managed public areas.

Tracks and roads that we used to drive when I was younger that are private roads are typically gated now.

Railways are typically separated by high fences. Increasingly pedestrian crossings are being closed (an ongoing process of elimination).

Some issues are practical. When I was younger fields were smaller. You could find routes along the intermediate edges of the field complex to get to a viewpoint or location. That can be quite difficult in some areas now - the total distance to get around the periphery of large field can easily take 20+ minutes each way.

I see it as a process of attrition.