Stop expanding the ULEZ to all the London boroughs in 2023

[Connoisseur]

Your theory of theoretical reasoning is some way off the mark.

The underlying justification is different, as is the modelling, and the implementation involves charging.

A more valid theory is that of the dogma at work - the invention of numbers and justification - and the creeping imposition of rules and strictures by the new political classes and media.

Ah yes, the Donald Trump line to take. It’s the fault of the ‘establishment conspiracy’, mouthed by a billionaire who got rich by joining the establishment and mugging off ordinary people

‘If the facts don’t back anything you say then it’s the facts that are wrong’ is a line used by extremists across the generations to justify law-breaking, violence and oppression, oh and the imposition of rules and strictures to suppress the facts.

It’s nothing new. In the USA now teachers are sacked for reading the ‘wrong books’ to kids, here the right to carry on poisoning the air our kids breathe is positioned as a ‘freedom’, just like smoking was claimed to be. Smoking in closed cars with kids in the back? It’s an absolute right and how dare you question it!

Nicely topped off with the line blaming the political classes and the media. Straight out of Fascism for Dummies, and just as unconvincing

 

[Darrell]

People aren’t addicted to owning a car that’s bad for the environment.

Owning a car that’s bad for the environment isn’t the most addictive drug ever made.

These are the points I was trying to make.

Also (according to the pub industry) it’s the main reason for so many boozers closing down.

 

[markjay]

Really? Technically you can argue just about anything is 'optional'.

Agreed that for many driving isn't an optional activity.

But owning an old Diesel car as opposed to a petrol car of a similar age, is.

 

[ALFAitalia]

But owning an old Diesel car as opposed to a petrol car of a similar age, is.

Is it though? It simply isn't for many.....as said above, men in white vans and people who have to do high miles so are already struggling with fuel cost wont see a petrol or EV as an option at all....similar age or not.

 

[markjay]

Is it though? It simply isn't for many.....as said above, men in white vans and people who have to do high miles so are already struggling with fuel cost wont see a petrol or EV as an option at all....similar age or not.

I agree that the switch from Diesel to petrol is very difficult for tradesmen driving old vans.

However, for private cars, I would argue that the idea that Diesel cars are more economic to run is a common misconception. Firstly, Diesel fuel prices have been higher than petrol prices for at least 10 years now. Then, Diesel cars don't really return significantly better fuel economy than petrol unless you drive them on A Roads and motorways. And last, when Diesel cars go wrong, on average they are much more expensive to repair than petrol. I would argue that for someone with low annual mileage, a Diesel car would typically cost more to run overall than a petrol one, or in a best case scenario it would be the same. I think that you'll need to be doing 10-15k miles annually before a Diesel car becomes significantly cheaper to run than petrol.

 

[horatio]

Diesel vs petrol argument is irrelevant. The outside air is perfectly clean. Any actual data proves that. What this is about is installing road pricing infrastructure.

Apparently ‘smart’ pay per mile has been shelved for now due to complexity but the immediate goal is to charge car journeys a flat rate for zone bands similar to LU. I expect the original city ulez & CC to be zone 1, north/south circ zone 2 and zone 3 to M25.

FYI! That explains the volume of cameras being installed!

 

[ChipChop]

Urban pollution is all down to population density. The more people that gravitate to an area the more problems they will create for the local environment.

So who has the 'right' to better their financial lot and move to, for example, this nations capital and create environmental issues?

Who is measuring NOX and particulate matter levels in London? Anyone know? I am aware of the billionaire Michael Bloomberg's funding of the breathe london sensors (what it has to do with him $$$ i do not know?) but who else? No doubt Imperial college london are a factor in their somewhere as is the norm when big money and 'sponsored research' is involved.

 

[markjay]

....Any actual data proves that...

Ah.... the authoritative argument...

 

[horatio]

Who is measuring NOX and particulate matter levels in London? Anyone know? I am aware of the billionaire Michael Bloomberg's funding of the breathe london sensors (what it has to do with him $$$ i do not know?) but who else. No doubt Imperial college london are a factor in their somewhere as is the norm when big money and 'sponsored research' is involved.

Jacobs made a report for the TfL consultation concluding it would make virtually no difference so khan & co ignored it and moved to emotions blackmail instead.

Brown Car Guy on YT used an air quality meter around London. Even under Heathrow with a A380 landing the outside air is ok. In the tube it’s truly awful. Loads of live air quality websites on the net too, it’s rarely not showing green.

 

[markjay]

Urban pollution is all down to population density. The more people that gravitate to an area the more problems they will create for the local environment.

So who has the 'right' to better their financial lot and move to, for example, this nations capital and create environmental issues?

Who is measuring NOX and particulate matter levels in London? Anyone know? I am aware of the billionaire Michael Bloomberg's funding of the breathe london sensors (what it has to do with him $$$ i do not know?) but who else? No doubt Imperial college london are a factor in their somewhere as is the norm when big money and 'sponsored research' is involved.

Ah... the innuendo argument....

 

[markjay]

Jacobs made a report for the TfL consultation concluding it would make virtually no difference so khan & co ignored it and moved to emotions blackmail instead.

Brown Car Guy on YT used an air quality meter around London. Even under Heathrow with a A380 landing the outside air is ok. In the tube it’s truly awful. Loads of live air quality websites on the net too, it’s rarely not showing green.

Science by YouTube... modern times, I suppose.

 

[horatio]

Science by YouTube... modern times, I suppose.

His findings with the meter matched live air quality mapping. Watch the videos and see what you think.

 

[markjay]

His findings with the meter matched live air quality mapping. Watch the videos and see what you think.

I saw the clip, it's been linked it before.

Like many others on here, I too have an academic degree, and I know that this is not how good science is made.

But we live in modern times, and the average layman will always prefer YouTubers and Internet bloggers to scientific data published by researchers in accredited academic institutions.

In fact there's even been some innuendo on here that our academic institutions are corrupt and can be bought with money... but YouTubers are above suspicion.

The members who respond here all use Internet and computers and mobile phones... which were only made possible by our academic institutions and their researchers, and not thanks to any one opinionated individual on Social Media.

 

[ALFAitalia]

I agree that the switch from Diesel to petrol is very difficult for tradesmen driving old vans.

However, for private cars, I would argue that the idea that Diesel cars are more economic to run is a common misconception. Firstly, Diesel fuel prices have been higher than petrol prices for at least 10 years now. Then, Diesel cars don't really return significantly better fuel economy than petrol unless you drive them on A Roads and motorways. And last, when Diesel cars go wrong, on average they are much more expensive to repair than petrol. I would argue that for someone with low annual mileage, a Diesel car would typically cost more to run overall than a petrol one, or in a best case scenario it would be the same. I think that you'll need to be doing 10-15k miles annually before a Diesel car becomes significantly cheaper to run than petrol.

Sorry....but if that was true people would have for rid of diesel cars ages ago...and they didn't. The only reason I bought my ALFA diesel is because I was doing lots of miles (I'm not now so it will be petrol next). It has been by some distance the cheapest car to run I've ever had....not even close to the running costs of even the most economical petrol cars. This is my first diesel of about 35 cars. I service my own cars but apart from oil changes and filters they don't need much. Insurance and road tax is cheaper too.

That said I would not touch a modern adblue diesel with a very long pole indeed!

 

[ChipChop]

I saw the clip, it's been linked it before.

Like many others on here, I too have an academic degree, and I know that this is not how good science is made.

But we live in modern times, and the average layman will always prefer YouTubers and Internet bloggers to scientific data published by researchers in accredited academic institutions.

In fact there's even been some innuendo on here that our academic institutions are corrupt and can be bought with money... but YouTubers are above suspicion.

The members who respond here all use Internet and computers and mobile phones... which were only made possible by our academic institutions and their researchers, and not thanks to any one opinionated individual on Social Media.

The academic origins of the world wide web were designed to foster not stifle debate. Something which is anathema to the current 'denier' culture. A referendum on the UK becoming a Technocracy would however be interesting but obviously no one in their right mind would ever be for such a thing. Home of democracy etc etc.

Anyhoo anyone know of any other billionaires with no track record in environmentalism pre the 'climate emergency' generously funding myopic research into their chosen pollution metrics?

 

[markjay]

...I think that you'll need to be doing 10-15k miles annually before a Diesel car becomes significantly cheaper to run than petrol.

Sorry....but if that was true people would have for rid of diesel cars ages ago...and they didn't. The only reason I bought my ALFA diesel is because I was doing lots of miles (I'm not now so it will be petrol next). It has been by some distance the cheapest car to run I've ever had....not even close to the running costs of even the most economical petrol cars....

Doesn't seem like a disagreement to me?

Also, the high mileage prevents expensive DPF issues.

 

[markjay]

The academic origins of the world wide web were designed to foster not stifle debate. Something which is anathema to the current 'denier' culture. A referendum on the UK becoming a Technocracy would however be interesting but obviously no one in their right mind would ever be for such a thing. Home of democracy etc etc.

Anyhoo anyone know of any other billionaires with no track record in environmentalism pre the 'climate emergency' generously funding research into their chosen pollution metrics?

The origins of the Internet (the www came much later) were ARPANET and Bitnet. Bitnet was a project linking researchers across universities worldwide allowing academics to exchange information and views (I used Bitnet in the early eighties, with a 300 baud Hays modem). The first non-academic use of Bitnet was by a group of students playing D&D online. And it exploded from there... USENET followed shortly. The underlying infrastructure moved from universities' network and private operators' networks (AOL, etc) to the ARPANET-based Internet that we have today much later, in the mid to late nineties.

The www came about in 1990 (from memory), and its Inventor Tim Berners-Lee was working at CERN at the time and created it predominantly for academic use.

In short, the public Internet that we have today came-about after some 20 years of military use and 15 years of academic use. I obviously welcome the transition from military and academic to civilian public use, but this was never the original intention of it's creators.

 

[clk320x]

So run public transport only at commuting times and close it down at weekends.

Why?

Public transport running in London isn’t forcefully damaging the health of the public to the same level as rattly old diesels are…

Every bus running on TFLs behalf has been ULEZ compliant since 2021, there’s also an increasing number of electric and hybrid buses operating.

 

[clk320x]

So ban all new development of offices and housing next to major roads.

Land is at a premium within London so that would be stupidity just because some people can’t afford a newer car, or they refuse to change to an equally priced petrol car that’s compliant?

Brake particulates are already a reducing issue with the uptake of EVs and regenerative braking…

 

[Dryce]

Land is at a premium within London so that would be stupidity

But hang on a minute - it's all about public health and safety amd the thousands of deaths that will be averted.

You simply can't argue against that.