Stop expanding the ULEZ to all the London boroughs in 2023

[markjay]

No. Bio fuels are carbon neutral. No different from doing nothing except doing nothing isn't much of a way to live.

They don't burn smokeless... and they don't leave only pure CO2 behind... burning carbon products causes pollution that is harmful to people's lungs.

 

[clk320x]

I think a few struggle to accept new technology, unfortunately for them EVs are now the present rather than future.

I’m sure there would have been similar people arguing the case for the horse and cart over the original motor vehicle.

 

[Darrell]

I think a few struggle to accept new technology, unfortunately for them EVs are now the present rather than future.

I’m sure there would have been similar people arguing the case for the horse and cart over the original motor vehicle.

I love new tech.
I had a mobile back in ‘88, got online in ‘97 and I’ve been using cordless power tools since ‘87 (they were shit though). All of these had benefits to me personally but I can’t really see that an EV can do that at the moment.

Still unsure about EV’s though. Have you got one?

 

[clk320x]

I love new tech.
I had a mobile back in ‘88, got online in ‘97 and I’ve been using cordless power tools since ‘87 (they were shit though). All of these had benefits to me personally but I can’t really see that an EV can do that at the moment.

Still unsure about EV’s though. Have you got one?

Fair enough. Yeah I’ve got one, I really like it to be fair and it works well for me.

 

[markjay]

I think a few struggle to accept new technology, unfortunately for them EVs are now the present rather than future.

I’m sure there would have been similar people arguing the case for the horse and cart over the original motor vehicle.

To be fair, one of the legitimate arguments against EVs is that they are NOT the green solution to our personal mobility problems.

If those who promote them took a minute to explain what the actual benefits are, instead of just shouting "It's green!", this whole misunderstanding could have been avoided.

 

[markjay]

Fair enough. Yeah I’ve got one, I really like it to be fair and it works well for me.

I've got one as well - not a Tesla, though.

 

[Darrell]

I've got one as well - not a Tesla, though.

Why have you got one?

 

[Darrell]

Fair enough. Yeah I’ve got one, I really like it to be fair and it works well for me.

Why have you got one?

 

[markjay]

Why have you got one?

Mainly because of the financial benefit of having one on a business lease. The tax exemptions are very significant. But also because I was curious and wanted to they the new tech.

 

[Darrell]

Mainly because of the financial benefit of having one on a business lease. The tax exemptions are very significant. But also because I was curious and wanted to they the new tech.

Money. With a bit of tech thrown in for free.
Thanks.

 

[clk320x]

Why have you got one?

Loved the tech in the Tesla, very futuristic, autopilot, crazy acceleration etc… also zero congestion zone charges as I was driving into central London daily.

Still love the car as much as I did the first day I got it, driven it all over Europe too and never had an issue with range etc.

Since getting one I wouldn’t go back to ICE (unless maybe a supercar for weekends) - I also started to take note of just how horrible a lot of the older diesel cars are for pedestrians and other drivers alike, I honestly think EVs are the solution to local air quality being better. Petrol cars aren’t so bad but older diesels are really quite horrific.

A few things I particularly like:
- Run full power heating/AC without the need for idling engines.
- Never having to visit a fuel station as long as I’m doing under 250 miles a day (which is 99% of the time) saving £££ on fuel too.
- Not having to ‘pre-warm’ the car to melt ice etc in the winter.
- Crazy fast acceleration when you want to have a bit of fun.
- Quiet and relaxing to drive.
- Autopilot makes motorway trips a doddle.
- Never having to carry out routine servicing with the exception of a cabin filter every 2 years and a brake fluid test.
- Practically never having to replace brake discs/pads.

 

[clk320x]

Money. With a bit of tech thrown in for free.
Thanks.

I suppose the whole reason behind the financial incentives is to convince people who can afford to switch to switch which in turn drives down the cost of the new tech for the rest. The local air quality improvement is a by product, realistically not many people would switch for that reason alone as ultimately most are selfish and money comes first, a bit like why scheme like the ULEZ work to force people to change cars by imposing financial penalty for not doing so.

 

[ChipChop]

May not be latest gimmick or 'exciting' bit of tech but one solution to the issue of personal mobility is to drive an old carbon neutral bio fuel diesel car outside of urban areas and use public transport or cycle within urban areas. The majority Chinese made EV as a 'green' personal mobility solution is a nonsense on so many levels, not least of which is the ill advised madness of handing over a significant proportion of the global car industry to the People's Republic of China.

And as this is a Mercedes forum it should be noted said company have a rich history of producing wonderful bio fuel ready carbon neutral diesel vehicles (w/s123 d's, w201 d's & w/s124 d's) which are still around in decent numbers thanks to their superb engineering. At a push the French were also very good at making Bosch pumped bio fuel friendly diesel cars as well.

 

[clk320x]

w/s123 d's, w201 d's & w/s124 d's) which are still around in decent numbers thanks to their superb engineering

Most are old rust buckets.

 

[Dryce]

Plenty of electric to go round. The National Grid claim that if every ICE car magically turned into an EV tonight it would not be a problem.....and that should know. Only the anti EV folks say otherwise..

Busting the myths and misconceptions about electric vehicles | National Grid Group

Can the electricity grid cope with more EVs? And what really happens to old EV batteries? Find out the answer to these and many more questions about electric vehicles in our comprehensive EV myth-buster.

www.nationalgrid.com

I think they use the term 'we believe'.

So doing a back of the envelope type calc.

So based on 323.8 billion miles per year total across all cars and assume 340Wh per mile.

11GW of power required 24 hours a day. That's 11 Torness or Heysham power stations.

They want to assume that charging is all smart and they can control when vehicles are charged. Hmmmmmmm. You plug in overnight and your car doesn't get charged as much as you expected because ... well your hard luck that there was too much demand. Turn up at a service area on the motorway on a bank holiday exodus - queue - and then discover you only get a % of what you need? Technically the grid coped. But that's a bit of a scam.

So in reality they'd need quite a bit more than that 11GW to deal with peaks and contingency on top.

Ahh but we have so much wind. Well then things become more complicated. With wind AIUI you get about 33% of the headline peak power over the year so that's around 33GW of capacity needed - and then we have to make sure there's contingency - back to that 11GW or a good chunk of it using some other form of power source maybe backed by pump storage.

Now not all EVs are as good as 340Wh per mile so these numbers might need a good chunk more. by 10% or 20% or ...

And let's not mention the extra fun of gas boilers being replaced by electric systems ......

So yes .... 'we believe'.

 

[ChipChop]

Most are old rust buckets.

That does not ring true when so many youngtimer (20-40yr old) Mercedes cars are still on the road, passing MOT tests year in year out despite their age. Thank you Bruno Sacco and your panels that hide a multitude of tin worm sins!

The earliest w201 and w124's are also now reaching historic vehicle 40 year old status so will soon be annual road tax exempt, MOT exempt and ULEZ charge exempt.

 

[Gollom]

Loved the tech in the Tesla, very futuristic, autopilot, crazy acceleration etc… also zero congestion zone charges as I was driving into central London daily.

Still love the car as much as I did the first day I got it, driven it all over Europe too and never had an issue with range etc.

Since getting one I wouldn’t go back to ICE (unless maybe a supercar for weekends) - I also started to take note of just how horrible a lot of the older diesel cars are for pedestrians and other drivers alike, I honestly think EVs are the solution to local air quality being better. Petrol cars aren’t so bad but older diesels are really quite horrific.

A few things I particularly like:
- Run full power heating/AC without the need for idling engines.
- Never having to visit a fuel station as long as I’m doing under 250 miles a day (which is 99% of the time) saving £££ on fuel too.
- Not having to ‘pre-warm’ the car to melt ice etc in the winter.
- Crazy fast acceleration when you want to have a bit of fun.
- Quiet and relaxing to drive.
- Autopilot makes motorway trips a doddle.
- Never having to carry out routine servicing with the exception of a cabin filter every 2 years and a brake fluid test.
- Practically never having to replace brake discs/pads.

OK, but IMHO there is an elephant in the room. Yes, the Tesla sounds fantastic (and I'd have one in a heartbeat). But you and others with modern tech can afford one, no doubt at all from working hard and making good decisions in your life for which I sincerely applaud you. But there are those who work just as hard but perhaps have not made the best decisions in life/not had the opportunities to either afford to buy the latest tech or even afford to change at all? What do they do?
I suppose it could be argued that all those £12.50's go a fair way to replacement - but the replacement needs to happen first. As someone has already said, it may have been better to state a future date when it would happen to enable people to budget and change accordingly? And of course by then the used EV market would be much more healthy (given a large number of Tesla's/better tech are likely to be on the market given the end of current leases)

BTW, I'm learning loads from this debate - most interesting

 

[markjay]

Money. With a bit of tech thrown in for free.
Thanks.

Correct.

The public health benefits from eliminating polluting cars from city centres aren't directly applicable to the EV owner. And most people are just not the 'charitable' types - in the sense that they won't pay loads of money or go out of their way to reduce the health hazards to the public from ICE cars being driven in urban areas.

That's where the government (central and local) comes in. It has the powers to ban certain types of vehicles (as in the Glasgow ULEZ), or apply a punitive cost to certain types of vehicles (as in the London ULEZ), or financially incentivise the take-up of certain types of vehicles (as in the EV tax exemptions). That's how governments use the powers they have in order to shape public behaviour.

However, each of the three methods will have proponents and opposers, as can be seen on this forum.

More specifically, I've always bought second hand cars, paid in full, and no I wouldn't have forked-out £30k+ of my post-tax money on a new car, EV or otherwise. So without the tax incentives, I would have probably not bought an EV until older models become available second hand for sensible money (which is the case now, but wasn't the case two years ago when I got my new EV on a business lease).

I am happy to report that, in my case at least, the government's public behaviour shaping plans worked as designed.

(And the fact that Westminster Council installed lamppost chargers in our area a few years ago made the decision to go for an EV a non-brainer)

 

[clk320x]

But there are those who work just as hard but perhaps have not made the best decisions in life/not had the opportunities to either afford to buy the latest tech or even afford to change at all? What do they do?

I think the ULEZ debate and the push to EVs are two different issues. No one is suggesting those driving a £2k old diesel need to go and buy a 40k EV, what’s being suggesting is they purchase an equally priced petrol vehicle which will be compliant with the ULEZ requirements.

Some will point out this becomes an issue when it comes to vans, as they are not commonly found with petrol engines, and new Euro 6 ones are pricey. Yes this is an issue, but to be fair the schemes expansion has been well publicised for years to give businesses time to prepare.

 

[Bellow]

They don't burn smokeless... and they don't leave only pure CO2 behind... burning carbon products causes pollution that is harmful to people's lungs.

You have chosen to conflate two different elements of tailpipe emissions. Exclude ICE from cities if you want but ICE in rural settings poses no significant threat to human health - and you know it.