Thank-you Pontoneer

[JumboBeef]

but remember this took place in Scotland where different laws apply.

I've never heard of different laws for driving in Scotland to England. Link please.

 

[flango]

I've never heard of different laws for driving in Scotland to England. Link please.

".....and yes, I do know what I am talking about: I also drive for the emergency serives and claim exemptons under the above act everytime I drive so I know the law very well...... "

Yet you don't know the laws in Scotland are different to that of England?

As an instructor I work in both Scotland and England. English police driver training is governed by ACPO guidelines and covered by certain exemptions under S87 of the Road Traffic act as you have already mentioned but are you also aware there is a new law covering exemptions as set out in a clause in the road safety bill? Emergency services driver training in England also usually involves one or more of the following, Department of Transport, DTAG (Ambulance), Fire & Rescue DTP, IAM, RoSPA and DSA so a consistant level of training is given accross all the services.

A lot of English police driver pursuit training is now being done at race circuits and rally stages as the traffic cars move towards the use of Subaru and Mitsubishi and its only in these conditions you can teach people how to control these type of cars properly. Also it is safer if it goes wrong as no members of the public are present. Police driver training is more advanced than that of the other emergency services as at its highest level covers pursuit driving and TPAC manouvres something the other services do not have to deal with. The only way to get this correct is practice, practice, practice and yet more practice.

Different ball game in Scotland with regards to traffic law and training, there are a whole host of offences that exist in Scotland but not in England, Police Driver training is governed by ACPOS and different exemptions apply according to the different acts passed by the Scottish Parliament. Just as in England as there are exemptions under other acts too and not just S87 of the RTA. What you have to remember is that Scotland has an area of 78,772 square kilometres but only has a population of 5 million, there are no motorway networks North of Perth so the majority of driving is on A or B roads. Now compare that to England, London itself has a population of 7.6 million the whole of England around 51 million in an area only 30% bigger than Scotland. So why would you have the same traffic laws when the conditions are completely different? This was the whole point of the Scottish Parliament to pass laws and acts that were relevant to their country and not have to rely on the c*ap thrown out by Westminster that had no relevance whatsoever North of Watford Gap.

Please feel free to go through the statutory instruments for both Countries where you will find these but I would recommend you read "Road Traffic Law in Scotland 4th Edition "by John Wheatley QC this is the bible on Scottish Motoring law and the one all the lawyers, Barristers and Procurator Fiscal use (remember also no CPS in Scotland)

The drives described earlier certainly broke none of the guidelines I have been exposed to or operated under in Scotland. As a civilian instructor I am not exempt from either countries road traffic laws so all my high speed instruction has to be done on race circuits or the polices own private facilities. Before any training course I always seek expert legal advice as to what is allowed by law in that particular country ( as I also work in Europe too)

But what you have to remember is that although the driver may be exempt from speeding he is not exempt from Careless or Dangerous driving! in either Country.

And before you ask no I am not Scottish but I do sympathise with the English Cr*p they have had to put up with for years.

 

[JumboBeef]

".....and yes, I do know what I am talking about: I also drive for the emergency serives and claim exemptons under the above act everytime I drive so I know the law very well...... "

Yet you don't know the laws in Scotland are different to that of England?

Of course I know some Scottish laws are different to English laws. I said

I've never heard of different laws for driving in Scotland to England.

You've given quite a long reply, and I thank you for your time. However, you say:

So why would you have the same traffic laws when the conditions are completely different?

Your reply listed the differences in training between forces. However, I would still be interested to see even one law/offence which is different between the two countries of England and Scotland.

I still can't see how taking Joe Public for a drive on public roads at 120+ can help those members of the public drive safer at 70. It would have been much more benefitual for the advanced drivers to show how to drive safely at the legal limit, and not at double it. When would Joe Public ever use this knowledge?

I know a number of emergency drivers and some of these (and I'm not say those in this thread because I don't know or have ever met them) love to show off their 'skill' and do a lot of willy waving about just how fast they can go and how far they can push it........

 

[flango]

. However, I would still be interested to see even one law/offence which is different between the two countries of England and Scotland.

OK here is just one of many, lets take this scenario you had a very large house in its own grounds that was acessed by a long driveway, the drive extended all around the house. One night you have a few too many shandy's and decide to take the car for a spin up and down the drive and around the house, if this happned in England and the police turned up nothing the police could do about it as RTA 1988 section 192 definition of a road is " any highway or road to which the public has access" so for example you could be possibly charged with disturbing the peace or noise pollution but not for drink driving as you are not on a road.

Now same scenario with the House located in Scotland, you WOULD be charged and prosecuted with drink driving as under RSA 1984 section 151 in Scotland the term road is extended to " any way over which a person has right of passage" so you have right of passage along your drive to your own home as do your family, so you are driving on a "road" which is illegal under the influence of drink.

The extension of the term road also makes other numerous motoring offences possible in Scotland that are not possible in England. This is why you will never get an English Lawyer to accept a case based in Scotland on Scottish law when the offence has taken place in Scotland.

I hope this answers your question and highlights the difference in the two countries, the book I mentioned in my earlier post is a real eye opener.

 

[JumboBeef]

OK, thanks for that. As I said, I am open to being put right by those who know.

(I could be picky and say that the law stated above ^^^ doesn't really affect most drivers driving on normal public roads, but I wont............... )

 

[G-Force]

You know guys, I like this forum. I like the people here, and I am appreciative of the help I have recieved whilst I have been a member.

So..........I don't want to fall out with anyone. They guys who attending this meeting had a great time. Good. I don't want to turn this thread into a punch up or a one-man crusade so I'm going to go and read a book/take a bath/cut the grass or something else

LOL....I thought you was cutting the grass?!?!?!?!? :bannana:

 

[flango]

OK, thanks for that. As I said, I am open to being put right by those who know.

(I could be picky and say that the law stated above ^^^ doesn't really affect most drivers driving on normal public roads, but I wont............... )

No problem, the example doesn't affect most drivers I agree but it is the extension of the term road that catches people out and that was just one that came into my head.

Another one though is speeding, and heres another example, sorry if I'm boring everyone now. Take the scenario

A car is speeding at 80 mph in a 30 mph limit, A police traffic officer out of his vehicle on foot sees this, signals the car to stop and charges the driver with speeding in excess of the 30 mph posted limit, case goes to court magistrate agrees with traffic officer that his experience is good enough to judge the car was travelling over the speed limit and the estimated speed by the officer was accurate enough to charge. Magistrate then passes sentance and points, fine and maybe a ban are the result.

Same scenario in Scotland In the first place the officer would not stop the car (he might report it and have a marker put against it) as the main fundamental difference between Scottish and English law is corroboration, without another officer there to corroborate his story there is no case. Thats why the majority of Scottish Traffic cars are still double crewed if you get stopped by one, one officer will issue the ticket the other will corroborate what took place. Just another little quirk North of the Border

 

[Druk]

This was the whole point of the Scottish Parliament to pass laws and acts that were relevant to their country and not have to rely on the c*ap thrown out by Westminster that had no relevance whatsoever North of Watford Gap.

:bannana::bannana::bannana:

Except..............someones now going to start on about the 'West Lothian Question'