prprandall51
MB Enthusiast
An important difference between IAM and RoSPA is that I have never found an insurance company that recognises - and thus provides a discount for - the RoSpa test, but IAM usually gets you a discount on your premium.
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 13,902
- Location
- North Oxfordshire
- Car
- His - Denim Blue A220 AMG Line Premium / Hers - Obsidian Black R172 SLK55
Not a criticism, just a question. I have been lead to believe that a test to Police Class 1 standard requires both pursuit and high-speed elements and as such this is not open to those not serving as a Police Officer (no exemption for exceeding the speed limit, for example). As such, the IAM Advanced Test can't be to "Police Class 1" standard . Or have I been mislead?
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 13,902
- Location
- North Oxfordshire
- Car
- His - Denim Blue A220 AMG Line Premium / Hers - Obsidian Black R172 SLK55
For info, RoSPA certification qualifies for discount on many Motorcycle Insurance policies.
flango
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
No you are bang on but there is a sort of civilian version of the Police class 1 that leaves out the high speed blues and twos day. But the level of skill and awareness is still that of a Police class one driver. You can do the full Police Class one programme but you have to do the high speed work on private facilities so then it becomes very expensive.
flango
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
I thought most companies recognised RoSPA, my Zurich policy certainly does and gives a healthy discount.
flango
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
This is absolutely bang on particularly the comments on the auto box, I have never driven one yet including the DSG boxes that have you in the correct gear for the conditions when you are in rural NSL areas which makes a fast cross country run impossible unless you manual shift.
flango
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
Just my 2p worth but IMHO for driver training using an auto is just pointless, the whole point of advanced driving is teaching car control and getting involved with the drive, how can you get involved in the drive if your gear changes are not being made by you? An automatic gearbox can't interpret road conditions on a greasy road at decent speed it will want to be in top, you may not want to be because you want to retain some control. OK you can downshift manually but if you were in a manual car you would have never been in top gear in the first place.
trando
Active Member
Hmmm - interesting comments... Part of the reason for me doing the IAM is because I drive a C55 and I felt that knowing how to drive more safely would probaby be a good thing given the type of car it is.
But I accept that if I did the training/took the test etc in a manual that I would still have the skills that could be transferred to an auto...
It's not good to hear from some people that they have not had a good experience with the IAM, but I will call my friendly, easy to get hold of IAM guy and have another chat with him. See what he thinks now I have heard what you lot think.
But I accept that if I did the training/took the test etc in a manual that I would still have the skills that could be transferred to an auto...
It's not good to hear from some people that they have not had a good experience with the IAM, but I will call my friendly, easy to get hold of IAM guy and have another chat with him. See what he thinks now I have heard what you lot think.
It doesn't PROVE they prefer manual : in most cases 'Joe ( or Josephine ) Public ' have never tried driving an automatic - so how can they have any qualified preference ???
I always hear this tired excuse 'you are more in control in a manual' , but whn you press them further , most people saying this will admit they have NEVER actually DRIVEN an automatic .
I could equally argue the point that you are more in control of a car if you have both hands on the wheel and not frequently grasping at a lever or kicking at a pedal with your left foot . Nor is juggling three pedals between only two feet a good proposition .
I choose to drive automatic because that is my preference , but don't ram it down the throats of those who want the other option . I find that , in normal driving , an automatic will be in the gear you want it to be in somewhere between 95% and 99% of the time - for the odd time it is not going to be in the gear of my choice I can select the appropriate gear myself - still less work and distraction from the business of driving the car than constantly 'shifting' manual gears .
As one shifts from 'normal' road driving to trying to 'make progress' then you will start to use the gears to exploit the power of the engine more and to 'balance' the car through bends taken closer to the handling limit : some like to exploit a manual gearbox for this ; I am still happy to determine the correct gear on the approach to a bend and to select it either by manipulation of the automatic selector lever , or by manipulation of the throttle and brakes . The automatic selector can also be used to 'lock out' higher gears , but still permitting automatic changing up to a chosen intermediate gear , which can be fine for making fast progress across country on 'A' roads or similar .
I'd also have to comment ( as I have said before ) that Advanced Driving is mostly about Observation , Observation , Observation and Planning , Planning , Planning than so much to do with the mechanics of operating the machinery ( steering , braking , gear changing ) although proficiency in these matters is obviously important too .
The comments at the beginning of this thread that is costs £xxx to 'join' IAM or RoSPA , I presume , relate to the test fee plus a year's full membership ?
Back when I did it ( 30 years ago ) you didn't 'join' either organisation at first - you just became an associate member of your local group ( back then for something like £12 per annum ) which entitled you to 'unlimited' tuition during your year's membership . There was then a test fee plus a membership fee to be paid annually .
As said above , IAM is a 'relatively' basic advanced driving test , requiring higher levels of observation than the MOT driving test , compliance with the law and evidence of forward planning and reasonable car control - in short a step up from novice levels .
RoSPA , starts off at a similar level with their 'Bronze' award and progresses through 'Silver' to 'Gold' at which you would be expected to drive to a similar standard to a police driver , but at normal road speeds and in compliance with all speed limits .
With IAM , once you have passed their test , there is no compulsion to retest ( although it is encouraged ) , but with RoSPA retesting every three years is required to maintain your standard ( or , at least it was when I did it back in the 1980's under 'The League of Safe Drivers' ) .
Although I used to be very active within my local IAM and LSD groups , becoming first an assessor , then training others to be assessors . However , after my daughter was born , and having to take a job which involved working anti-social hours to finance bringing up a young family meant I had no time to continue an active role with the group , I had to drop out after about 10 years .
Every insurance company is different , but each advanced driving organisation should be able to provide a list of insurers who give discounts to members . Every driver is different too , so while some may make good savings , others may not .
You are absolutely right.
The advanced test involves driving at Class 1 standard but within the confined of the law. As such, you will be driving where it is deemed safe to do so at the maximum pace but within the law (not just the speed limits).
For example, where it is appropriate to do so, maximum acceleration in 1st and 2nd gear on national speed limit roads and block change into 6th to maintain constant speed below the limit.
The only difference in the test between a manual and an auto or semi-auto is clutch control. You will still be examined on appropriate use of gear (i.e. which gear you should be using at any situations / hazards) and gear change (i.e. you should not overlap the heavy braking phase and the changing gear phase)
There are still over 30 other items which the examiner have to assess in the test and you have to be constantly above the DSA learner standard to pass.
I wouldn't say driver training using an auto is pointless. I still train in the S-class, RX8 and the Smart Roadster Coupe as I believe an advanced driver should be able to adapt his/her driving style to any car and demonstrate advanced driving skill regardless whether it is an auto, semi-auto or manual.
I hope all advanced drivers would not stop being an advanced driver simply because they were taught in a manual and was given an auto to demonstrate your driving.
Having said that, I was given a 50s Bristol and it took me a good 30 minutes on road driving to master it
Hmmm, this strikes me as not a little bit silly .
For a NORMAL driver ( not an emergency responder ) what is the point of using MAXIMUM acceleration just to reach a 'brick wall' when the NSL is attained ?
After I attained my IAM and LSD ( Class 1 ) certificates back in the 1980's , I went on to do a 'civilianised' version of the TPO (Traffic Patrol Officer) course at Tulliallan , followed by PI ( Potential Instructor ) , which is/was only offered to the top 15% of those passing TPO : we were NEVER taught to drive like that .
Furthermore , unless you are PLANNING to overtake a slower vehicle in front or holding a lower gear for flexibility through bends on a twisty road , why not save fuel by using top gear to cruise at the NSL ? An advanced driver will always be looking well ahead and be able to select a lower gear IN ADVANCE if required so performance need never be compromised .
Are the phrases 'car sympathy and passenger comfort' never used in commentary these days ?
It is one matter keeping your engine 'on the cam' during a pursuit but entirely another when driving normally in traffic .
It is entirely possible to drive to the same standards of observation and adherance to 'the system' as a Police Class 1 driver without neccessarily driving at the MAXIMUM attainable speeds all the time , nor needing to 'floor it' in low gears whenever a road opens up .
Is the maxim not still to drive ' SAFELY , SMOOTHLY , PROGRESSIVELY AND WELL ' ?
Why raise your stress levels , those of your passengers , alarm other road users , use more fuel and wear out your car if you are not on an emergency call ?
Agreed with you totally.
Regarding cruising at a constant speed regardless whether you are driving at the speed limit or not, you should always cruise in the top gear. Hence my example of block change up from 2nd to 6th. If I need brisk acceleration, I often block change from 1st to 4th. You just have to do it smoothly regardless whether you drive a manual or auto. This is what my examiner marked me down for as I knew about block change down but reluctant to block change up.
With regards to progressive "normal" driving vs. maximum progressive while still being completely safe, does that not depends on what you are training for / objective of your drive? Either way you still have to be smooth with mechanical sympathy.
For example, on a normal country drive, I often use 1/3 of the straight between bends for acceleration and 2/3 of the straight to adjust my speed down for the next bend.
However, depends on the purpose of the drive and what I am driving, I may use 2/3 or even 3/4 of the straight for acceleration and the 1/3 or 1/4 of the straight for deceleration.
Which ever method I use I would still have to smooth and sympathetic to the car and be able to stop in the distance I can see (or half the distance if the road narrows).
I am actually interested to know if this is very different from the test back in the 80s because I would have thought the approach/application maybe different by the road craft hasn't really change since its first inception.
OK , thanks for the comments .
I think there was a problem with terminology : not having heard the expression 'block change' before - I thought you meant 'lock out' 6th gear in your original text .
Reading your reply just now , I take it you mean to change DIRECTLY from 2nd to 6th or 4th to 1st etc ? (BTW , I've never driven a CAR , manual or auto , with as many as 6 gears , most of mine are 4 speeders and I've had a couple of 3 speed autos - thought engines were meant to have more TORQUE = less need for gears nowadays ? ) We also taught not to use 5th gears/overdrives below 50 mph .
We used to do that as well , depending on vehicle and circumstances . Even my 1970 220/8 could (just) accelerate to 30 in 1st gear but normally I'd get rolling in 1st , select 2nd to accelerate to 30 and then select top if planning to maintain 30 , all which could be done smoothly and without noise or drama . Do you still teach students to double-declutch to achieve a smooth and timely gear change ? We did this back in the 1980's .
Likewise on the way down , we would make only one gear change as per the system , even if it meant rolling up to a junction in top then selecting first to move off .
Acceleration sense : yes , we would always accelerate so far along a straight then decelerate for the next bend " the first method of braking is by acceleration sense ; the second by using the brakes " . Timings and distances would depend on speeds , distances and the vehicle in question - what we did NOT like to see was someone come off the power and straight onto the brakes : there should always be a period of deceleration in between .
It did sound as if you were advocating driving like the instructors did on our recent demo night at Tulliallan , up to the NSL 'brick wall' , although even they admitted , when asked , that they don't drive their own cars like that .
We always were taught , and taught others , to accelerate smoothly up to a safe speed and the NSL was 'a limit , not a target' .
I'm off home now , I'll look in later .
I think there was a problem with terminology : not having heard the expression 'block change' before - I thought you meant 'lock out' 6th gear in your original text .
Reading your reply just now , I take it you mean to change DIRECTLY from 2nd to 6th or 4th to 1st etc ? (BTW , I've never driven a CAR , manual or auto , with as many as 6 gears , most of mine are 4 speeders and I've had a couple of 3 speed autos - thought engines were meant to have more TORQUE = less need for gears nowadays ? ) We also taught not to use 5th gears/overdrives below 50 mph .
We used to do that as well , depending on vehicle and circumstances . Even my 1970 220/8 could (just) accelerate to 30 in 1st gear but normally I'd get rolling in 1st , select 2nd to accelerate to 30 and then select top if planning to maintain 30 , all which could be done smoothly and without noise or drama . Do you still teach students to double-declutch to achieve a smooth and timely gear change ? We did this back in the 1980's .
Likewise on the way down , we would make only one gear change as per the system , even if it meant rolling up to a junction in top then selecting first to move off .
Acceleration sense : yes , we would always accelerate so far along a straight then decelerate for the next bend " the first method of braking is by acceleration sense ; the second by using the brakes " . Timings and distances would depend on speeds , distances and the vehicle in question - what we did NOT like to see was someone come off the power and straight onto the brakes : there should always be a period of deceleration in between .
It did sound as if you were advocating driving like the instructors did on our recent demo night at Tulliallan , up to the NSL 'brick wall' , although even they admitted , when asked , that they don't drive their own cars like that .
We always were taught , and taught others , to accelerate smoothly up to a safe speed and the NSL was 'a limit , not a target' .
I'm off home now , I'll look in later .
Last edited:
Yes
We were taught to use the highest possible gear to maintain cruising speed. For example, on a Mondeo petrol/diesel manual, my cruising rpm on flat road would be about 1200rpm in 4th at 30 mph.
Yes we teach double-declutch but only a minority of associates use this technique as it is more difficult to master engaging the clutch smoothly but quickly. Also, the synchromesh are so good in modern cars nowadays that the technique is really only needed where you have to maintain current speed while changing down, such as preparing for an overtake.
Agreed with all of the above - obviously your instructors meant they only go beyond the NSL "brick wall" on a response-run
Last edited:
Can it also be used when braking heavily and changing down gear, to help prevent the driven wheels locking-up?
flango
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
Just a few comments on Pontoneer and Hygt posts really, I must admit I agree with them on 99% of what they say but have my own opinions on a couple of things, which doesn't mean I'm right of course just my preference.
I'll start with the Auto Vs Manual debate Derek is quite right some of the public do have an aversion to automatics I believe for the following 2 reasons most people dont understand how they work so they are scared of them (Bit like the nuclear power thing public dont understand how a reactor works so its scary and dangerous) second reason is Automatics are generally worse on fuel and higher on emissions and since road tax and company car tax are based on emissons then people steer clear and stick with manuals
I'm also not a fan of block shifting it doesn't teach driver awareness of minimum and maximum speed in each gear. I accept it is used and taught correctly nothing wrong with it but I personally dont like it.
Accelaration sense one of the must important aspects of advanced driving used correctly will keep you safe and save you a fortune in brakes, tyres and clutches.
Golden rule " always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear"
Back to the auto Vs manual for advanced driver training whilst I can agree that you can get equal benefit from training in an auto up to Police Class one level once you go above this then things start to become more difficult, remember there are 2 grades above a Police Class 1 driver aimed at the security services, bodyguards and diplomatic chauffeurs. A lot of this type of driving involves defensive, evasive and anti terrorism tactics and specialist manouvres such a J turns, drifts, tactical pursuit and containment, PIT Manouvres, high speed reverse etc.. Things like this are extremely difficult to do in an automatic, not impossible but difficult. If you look at the cars used by Politicians and Security service cars you will see they are all fitted with manual gearboxes. Stepping up to this level of driving is a big ask and all drivers have to have passed the Police Class 1 before embarking on this.
So horses for courses I think but my personal preference is for a manual gearbox.
I'll start with the Auto Vs Manual debate Derek is quite right some of the public do have an aversion to automatics I believe for the following 2 reasons most people dont understand how they work so they are scared of them (Bit like the nuclear power thing public dont understand how a reactor works so its scary and dangerous) second reason is Automatics are generally worse on fuel and higher on emissions and since road tax and company car tax are based on emissons then people steer clear and stick with manuals
I'm also not a fan of block shifting it doesn't teach driver awareness of minimum and maximum speed in each gear. I accept it is used and taught correctly nothing wrong with it but I personally dont like it.
Accelaration sense one of the must important aspects of advanced driving used correctly will keep you safe and save you a fortune in brakes, tyres and clutches.
Golden rule " always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear"
Back to the auto Vs manual for advanced driver training whilst I can agree that you can get equal benefit from training in an auto up to Police Class one level once you go above this then things start to become more difficult, remember there are 2 grades above a Police Class 1 driver aimed at the security services, bodyguards and diplomatic chauffeurs. A lot of this type of driving involves defensive, evasive and anti terrorism tactics and specialist manouvres such a J turns, drifts, tactical pursuit and containment, PIT Manouvres, high speed reverse etc.. Things like this are extremely difficult to do in an automatic, not impossible but difficult. If you look at the cars used by Politicians and Security service cars you will see they are all fitted with manual gearboxes. Stepping up to this level of driving is a big ask and all drivers have to have passed the Police Class 1 before embarking on this.
So horses for courses I think but my personal preference is for a manual gearbox.
flango
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
Double declutch technique is also very useful if you are driving things bigger than a car with a manual gearbox large vans small lorries etc as it can then be very useful.
In cars the main reason for doing a double declutch is to maintain speed while going down the box. In modern cars used in training or police pursuit the cars are remapped so that you can do full accelaration gear changes. i.e You dont lift your foot off the accelarator, when depressing the clutch and changing gear, rally cars have been configured like this for years and its another good example of how motorsport technology has made it on to the road.
Not recommended.
You should have both hands on the wheel when you are braking hard, especially when you are close to locking up the road wheels or activating the ABS.
I very rarely heel-and-toe on a manual car on public roads. If I do, I would brake harder before and after the heel-and-toe phase. During the heel-and-toe phase I probably reduce the braking force by 30% compare to before and after.
However, it is a different matter on the track.
