W210 over heating, pressuring up.

[Phil Thomas]

Our '99 W210 E class 300td elegance estate at 100k miles had never given any cooling problems, but ran cold last Feb. The thermostat was jammed open, and replaced, including the new style housing. All fluids were fine, and the antifreeze in particular was as new. Subsequent trips have been short up to Easter, when a 50 mile trip caused overheating and engine cut out. After cooling it would restart only to cut out after a mile or so.

The local MB dealer diagnosed a viscous fan problem, replaced at a cost of £550. However he road tested and found it pressured up, and overheated. Fluids (engine oil and antifreeze) fine he says, and nothing untoward out of the exhaust. First try to be the thermostat, as it is the cheapest to fix!

This is beginning to sound like the 'replace bits until it works' caper. I cannot see that the coolant would be OK if the pressure was due to a leak from the cylinder into the coolant. He seems to be relying on the look of the fluid, rather than testing for noxious gases though. That he does not know if the cutting out was due to a safety device is a little disturbing.

Does anyone have any views, theories, or similar experiences please?

And does anyone know if the cutting out was due to a safety device?

 

[Dieselman]

There are fuel temp and water temp sensors which will cause the ECU to adopt Limp Home mode, and maybe could cause cut out.

Have you checked the water pump is actually pumping, the plastic impeller can break up causing no pumping.

The pressurising is probably just locallised boiling, how hot does it get?

 

[AANDYY]

There are fuel temp and water temp sensors which will cause the ECU to adopt Limp Home mode, and maybe could cause cut out.

Have you checked the water pump is actually pumping, the plastic impeller can break up causing no pumping.

The pressurising is probably just locallised boiling, how hot does it get?

This used to happen to some Mk2 2.5 V6 Mondeos, at not high milage .

 

[230K]

Hi

Definitely check the impellor, with the thermostat off feel in and see if the impellor is loose.
Link below of my one failing
http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=26149&highlight=impellor

230K

 

[Phil Thomas]

There are fuel temp and water temp sensors which will cause the ECU to adopt Limp Home mode, and maybe could cause cut out.

Have you checked the water pump is actually pumping, the plastic impeller can break up causing no pumping.

The pressurising is probably just locallised boiling, how hot does it get?

Thanks for the help. I had not considered the impellor. Neither had the MB dealer I suspect. Unfortunately the car is some 7k miles from me, as I am in SA. I can't ask my wife as the car is in Blackburn, some 40 odd miles from home, and she has no transport as the dealer reclaimed the courtesy car after 3 days, saying that they had a deal with Enterprise that they had to pay for the car after 3 days. (Enterprise said they charged MB only 10% of their normal rate, which will be under a tenner, after 3 days. Something new every day! MBUK seem to get more cheapjack every day, except when it comes to charging!!)

I will tell him to check that when he takes off the thermostat (with acknowledgement to a post below this!)

Thanks again,

Phil Thomas

 

[Phil Thomas]

Hi

Definitely check the impellor, with the thermostat off feel in and see if the impellor is loose.
Link below of my one failing
http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=26149&highlight=impellor

230K

Thanks for this post, particularly the way of checking the impellor. I will tell the garage asap to consider that. I could not discuss it with the mechanic as he was not around at 4pm. Only an indicator, not proof, that he may have realised the viscous fan was the wrong diagnosis.

Thanks again,

Phil Thomas

 

[Dieselman]

Thanks for this post, particularly the way of checking the impellor. I will tell the garage asap to consider that. I could not discuss it with the mechanic as he was not around at 4pm. Only an indicator, not proof, that he may have realised the viscous fan was the wrong diagnosis.

An E300 doesn't even need a fan on at all, so it definately isn't the viscous coupling.

You would probably be cheaper to get the car recovered to member Ian Walker (W124 works) than pay for the dealer to fix it.

 

[Phil Thomas]

An E300 doesn't even need a fan on at all, so it definately isn't the viscous coupling.

You would probably be cheaper to get the car recovered to member Ian Walker (W124 works) than pay for the dealer to fix it.

Just phoned the dealer: he had not tried the impellor, nor had it occurred to him. As he has already fitted the fan you can see where we are headed. Fortunately he has kept the old one. The saga continues.....
Thanks for the help so far.

 

[nick mercedes]

However he road tested and found it pressured up, and overheated.

Headgasket time?

 

[Phil Thomas]

Headgasket time?

That is one suggestion the dealer made. BUT there is no antifreeze contamination or emulsification of the oil, nor an increase in the oil level, and no excessive moisture in the exhaust gases. Unless someone knows something I don't (perfectly possible!!!), it seems unlikely to be the head gasket. I hope!!

 

[lynall]

I have had it before on engines where there is no fluid transfer but the gasket has blown leading to cylinder pressure entering the cooling system.

Anyway as the dealer has charged you £550 for a viscous fan i would go with dm suggestion and get it out of there asap.

Viscous unit for mine was just over £100 and thats dear, as the smaller 320 etc engines fans are about £75!



Lynall

 

[pete vee rod]

Is the water pump impellor plastic on my 2000 e320 cdi, you have me concerned now because it failed at 100,000 miles on the 325 BMW I had, and I mean really failed as there was hardly any impellor left and I dont know where all the bits went!!

 

[Phil Thomas]

QUOTE=lynall;758218]I have had it before on engines where there is no fluid transfer but the gasket has blown leading to cylinder pressure entering the cooling system.

Anyway as the dealer has charged you £550 for a viscous fan i would go with dm suggestion and get it out of there asap.

Viscous unit for mine was just over £100 and thats dear, as the smaller 320 etc engines fans are about £75!



Lynall[/QUOTE]

I had not considered fluid transfer, but rather combustion gases into the coolant. That would pressurise the system in much the same way as the coolant boiling. The head gasket allowing gases into the coolant, as any Discovery owner can tell you, can be tested for by a test on the coolant. (I get the impression that the MB coolant may include an indicator of that.)

I wish I were not 7k miles away! As the dealer took the courtesy car back at 3 days, my wife has no transport, and it is some 40 miles away from home.

Had the fan done the job I would have smiled through gritted teeth and paid up. However it has not cured the problem, causing me to wonder if the initial diagnosis of a fan problem was incorrect. And is the same true of the dealer's head gasket theory? It does not ring true to me.

The front of house guy says the mechanic has found the impellor is rotating OK, but does not know if the fanbelt has been removed when the test was done. If it had not been the impellor would not be easy to turn (I would think). If the fan belt were in place it could be that the impellor is rotating freely on the shaft. In other words it would not impel anything. I never get to speak to the mechanic of course.

 

[230K]

The front of house guy says the mechanic has found the impellor is rotating OK, but does not know if the fanbelt has been removed when the test was done. If it had not been the impellor would not be easy to turn (I would think). If the fan belt were in place it could be that the impellor is rotating freely on the shaft. In other words it would not impel anything. I never get to speak to the mechanic of course.

You are correct if the impellor can be spoked round through the thermostat hole while the fan belt is attached then that is the problem. Though something could get lost in the translation as they say.

230K

 

[Phil Thomas]

I mentioned above re the three day courtesy car. It seems this is from the new Mobilo warranty. The dealer is not providing one. However the old Mobilo Life warranty, which covers our car, gives you 5 days! I wish they had given the new (and less beneficial) warranty a different name. This confusion seems to be likely to be a feature of owning a car with the old warranty.

 

[Phil Thomas]

I have had it before on engines where there is no fluid transfer but the gasket has blown leading to cylinder pressure entering the cooling system.

Anyway as the dealer has charged you £550 for a viscous fan i would go with dm suggestion and get it out of there asap.

Viscous unit for mine was just over £100 and thats dear, as the smaller 320 etc engines fans are about £75!



Lynall

Both dealers wanted about £200 for the viscous fan.

 

[Phil Thomas]

There are fuel temp and water temp sensors which will cause the ECU to adopt Limp Home mode, and maybe could cause cut out.

Have you checked the water pump is actually pumping, the plastic impeller can break up causing no pumping.

The pressurising is probably just locallised boiling, how hot does it get?

This saga is not yet over, having started on the 9th April when the car broke down with severe overheating. It was the recipient of the MB Mobilo roadside attention, a perfectly good service. The car was taken to the nearest dealership, who looked at it after Easter, on the 14th April. The cause was diagnosed as the viscous fan on that day. Like dieselman I had my reservations about that, but was a bit bounced into agreeing as I was in South Africa. So why do we not yet have the car back? It is 45 days since the breakdown, and 40 days since the diagnosis.

It seems that Dieselman and Mercedes 230k are far better than the MB professionals. I did pass on to the dealer that the pump was a likely solution. He said he checked. The car is now at a different MB dealer who has diagnosed the water pump as the problem, with the reservation that the head may yet be a problem, if unlikely. The car is presently awaiting a new V Belt, as the item was not in stock. So it will have been off the road for 6 weeks if all goes well from here. The present dealership is far more efficient.

I could wax on about the whole business, but it is better to look at the lessons.

1.The original dealer did not seem to know about the tests for combustion products in the coolant. He said it was not part of the Mercedes approved diagnostic routine. It should be.

2. It is VERY rare for parts to be in the dealer's stock. This has caused delays of about 20 days in this case. Things like V belts and thermostats are basic items I would expect to be immediately available. Water pumps too perhaps. Viscous fans perhaps not. The parts availability and efficiency of distribution need to be improved. I have experienced delivery of incorrect parts twice out of 6 recent items. The non stocking of parts seems to militate against efficient servicing too.

3. The Mobilo life warranty should be available on line. (Only the post 01.03.08 version appears to be there.) It took Mobilo some 18 days to email me one. The original one was in the car of course. You will need one as MB don't seem to know the entitlement, and you will have to tell them what you should have.

4. The intervention of the help centre is delayed by the time given to dealers to respond to a reported problem. Nothing happens until the report from the dealer is received. Meanwhile you have no transport.

5. It is prudent to check that your FMBSH is correctly recorded by Mobilo. Ours was not, due to the inefficiency of the Stockport branch that I have mentioned previously in other posts.

6. Certain MB helpcentre staff need retraining or redeploying. One senior staff member spoke to my rather equable third son in extremely rude terms. Another was sadly misinformed as to the legal aspects of this case. Others were excellent.

7. I would advise you to consider carefully the need to preserve a FSMBH. Is it worth the cost in terms of high labour costs? As the body warranty / goodwill arrangements are ducked out of or ignored, and as acceptance of the Mobilo breakdown facility puts you in the hands of inefficient MB dealers, you might conclude that the cost / benefit ratio is weighted against dealer servicing.

8. Are the perceived benefits of MB ownership illusory? In 2004 the J D Power survey placed them 9th from the bottom. I have no personal knowledge of the situation with new cars, but German sources indicate they have blown it, and not yet recovered.

Thanks to the earlier posters mentioned above, who have saved me much money. I am obliged to you gentlemen.

 

[w124coupe]

If the first dealer swapped a perfectly good viscous fan AND showed a distinct lack of any diagnostic skills then you should be refunded.

You have the right to expect a marque dealer to understand basic testing processes for a common, well-understood part. This is not an elusive electrical glitch but basic cooling that has changed little in decades.

For £550 charged for a wrong diagnosis, I would have a full and frank conversation with the dealer principal and, if necessary, involve Trading Standards. Follow it all up in writing and copy Merc at Milton Keynes.

You say the fan is £200 - how does fitting labour take this to £550?

Times are hard for the dealers and this smells of profiteering at your expense (or they are just crap - which is also unacceptable at over £100 per hour).

 

[johnsco]

It seems that Phil has had a really raw deal out of MB main dealers with his cooling/overheating problem.
One thing for-sure about engine over-heating is that it is not rocket science.
If I was a betting man (and I am generally not, given the job that I do), then I would back Dieselman and Mercedes 230K. Also the comments from W124coupe
Unfortunately, there are a lot of so-called mechanics out there who have very little depth in what they claim to do.
Their learning-curve can very-easily be at our expense.

I'm learning the hard way, at the moment, about the joys of fixing the oil cooler on my E300TD.
At least the learning is at my own expense !!

Wish you a speedy solution, Phil.
Cheers
Johnsco

 

[Phil Thomas]

If the first dealer swapped a perfectly good viscous fan AND showed a distinct lack of any diagnostic skills then you should be refunded.

You have the right to expect a marque dealer to understand basic testing processes for a common, well-understood part. This is not an elusive electrical glitch but basic cooling that has changed little in decades.

For £550 charged for a wrong diagnosis, I would have a full and frank conversation with the dealer principal and, if necessary, involve Trading Standards. Follow it all up in writing and copy Merc at Milton Keynes.

You say the fan is £200 - how does fitting labour take this to £550?

Times are hard for the dealers and this smells of profiteering at your expense (or they are just crap - which is also unacceptable at over £100 per hour).

My post was somewhat edited for the sake of brevity, and to avoid the kind of lengthy post that has concerned other members in other recent threads: I also wanted to depersonalise it to avoid acusations of mud slinging.

Dealer 1 diagnosed the fan. I did not quibble about replacing it, on the assumption that it was faulty. I felt it was not likely to be the cause however. Once fitted the problem was not cured, and they tried a new thermostat, although I had fitted one a month or two before. They said they had tested it, and thinking it was out of the car I asked the front man to have the impellor checked as advised by one of you guys above. They said it was fine, but in such a way that I doubted it. The thermostat did not do it, and it was then 'diagnosed' as the cylinder head or gasket, which they clearly thought it was all the time. I was not clear as to the diagnostic process, and asked for details of what the diagnosis consisted of.

Meanwhile the Mobilo people had got involved over the courtesy car situation (don't ask!), and then put on their complaints hats. It was escalated because the dealer was slow to put in the reports needed. The dealer eventually arranged to return the car home, saying it was fine for moderate speeds, not to do 70 down the motorway. The delivery driver did just that, and broke down! The excuse was that he had to do 70 because that was the speed limit!

The plan was to deliver it home and dump it on the drive. My wife asked for it to be taken to dealer 2, but this was turned down 'on principle'. Mobilo negotiated a 'free' diagnosis (there was a charge of £84 for the first - inaccurate - one, which was how the figure of £550 was arrived at: I never saw an invoice). I asked to see the details of the diagnoses, and the service manager claimed to have emailed it, but did not try again.

My wife called in some trade association, who piled on some pressure, and it was agreed that the old parts would be refitted and 'principle' waived to allow delivery to dealer two. There would be no charge, which makes me reluctant to press the dealer re the diagnostics. Doubting Thomas suspects the details of the diagnostics would be embarrassing to dealer one.

Dealer two says the water pump is faulty, has ordered it and fitted it. The mechanic noted a worn V belt, and this has been ordered: there will be no fitting charge for it as it is stripped down. We are looking at about £500 I understand. (I was in transit back home while all this was going on.)

Dealer one did claim at one time that their diagnosis was interfered with because the thermostat had been fitted upside down. From memory that is not possible, but I certainly took care with it. In any event it was operating normally for some weeks after I fitted it. Crap, I suspect.

I will be less than impresssed if the viscous fan does not need replacing, but as Dieselman says, you don't need it really. If it is needed I will do it myself.

Mobilo think the case is closed, but I am waiting to see how it pans out. And what can I sue for? Loss of use of car? Phone calls? Distress?

We'll see!

Thanks for your interest,

Phil