Whats your strategy for year 2030 / ban of ICE vehicles?

[Bellow]

With the majority of the adult male population in the UK being smokers at one point of time, You'd have thought that they won't respond kindly to the government trying to administer any punitive measures to rid the masses of its cheap and readily available habit. And yet, worked it did:

So punitive taxation to shape behaviour does work. And I am not aware of any government losing an election due to smokers' revolt.

From:

Part 3: Affordability and expenditure on tobacco - NHS England Digital

Statistics on Smoking

digital.nhs.uk

https://ash.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/SmokingStatistics.pdf

I tried driving to work in a cigarette but it was raining and didn't perform too well. The other 19 were no better.

 

[markjay]

I tried driving to work in a cigarette but it was raining and didn't perform too well. The other 19 were no better.

Luckily you didn't try smoking the exhaust pipe

 

[Deleted member 126251]

Actually, I do not disagree.

But as you may have noticed from my previous posts... I am primarily concerned about air quality in city centres.

This is the elephant in any room full of ICE-lovers.

I don’t believe that the general consensus here is that EV is a bad thing. It seems that many agree that it is not currently fit for purpose for the mass market and what is called into question is range, price, infrastructure & the “Eco” benefits of going Ev over the next few years.

Them there are questions about

1) the blood lithium (to coin a phrase) mined by child labour & owned by Chinese corporations buying up Africa and
2) disposal of all the EV batteries at true end of life. They are already repurposing batteries that are no long fit for use in EVs but what happens after that? We already have a problem with the batteries we currently consume.

 

[markjay]

1) the blood lithium (to coin a phrase) mined by child labour & owned by Chinese corporations buying up Africa and
2) disposal of all the EV batteries at true end of life. They are already repurposing batteries that are no long fit for use in EVs but what happens after that? We already have a problem with the batteries we currently consume.

1. Oil wars shed blood, as do dictatorial regimes who thrive on oil money.

2. The global pollution from the petrochemical industry is breath-taking compared to EV batteries recycling.

The answer to both issues is that we should manufacture less and consume less. The ever increasing use of motor vehicles is simply not sustainable, ICE or EVs. But if we had to chose, then EVs are lesser of two evils.

 

[Deleted member 126251]

1. Oil wars shed blood, as do dictatorial regimes who thrive on oil money.

2. The global pollution from the petrochemical industry is breath-taking compared to EV batteries recycling.

The answer to both issues is that we should manufacture less and consume less. The ever increasing use of motor vehicles is simply not sustainable, ICE or EVs. But if we had to chose, then EVs are lesser of two evils.

Spurious response. We’re not discussing the past of fossil fuels but the future of EV.

1) Do you truly think that didcators are not getting fat on lithium & cobalt?
2) Ev batteries are a long way off “peak use” which is where we probably are with fossil fuels.

Are the chemicals in batteries going to be the big polluters of the future?
No use banging on about consumption, the world population continues to grow & the most populous countries are getting bigger (more people) and richer by the day and will be the mega consumers in this century (just look at China) and their ECO track records are not too good..
Fossil fuels were not considered evil 100 years ago, what is the future with all the poisons that go into EV batteries?

 

[Dickster]

By the time 2030 comes around, off street charging wont even be a thing. There's no point in even trying to perpetuate the broken model that car ownership in cities is sensible.
You need to look beyond the "faster horse" argument to see what lies beyond.
Why do you think that non-profit making Uber is valued so highly? Because its the future! And by that I means that Uber (or similar) will be the controlling company for a fleet of self drive electric vehicles that you just summon. Some giant Ubercomputer will be controlling them and positioning them in convenient places so one is never more than 30 seconds away (quicker than you being able to walk to your car , parked several streets away). They will of course automatically recharge at out of town recharge centres, of which we already have loads (supermarkets will just be distribution centres so won't need giant carparks.)

Anybody feeling the need to drive 700 miles in one go can take a train or hire a vehicle - think of all the capital savings for individuals - transport as a service! We've done it for years with buses, trains and taxis. Surely just making that model work is the obvious solution - effectively a personal taxi.
If you live in the countryside, then there might be an argument for buying an EV, but then you can recharge at home (or just be a bit more organised in planning your uber).

Give it a while and people will be amazed that anyone ever thought that driving yourself about in a vehicle that you had to pay for as well was ever something that anyone even aspired to, let alone thought was a right.

Things do change. It wasn't so long ago that there was heated discussion about the relative benefits of VHS, Betamax and video 2000. These were destroyed by DVD, and now DVD is on the way out as we now have a digital infrastructure that allows on demand streaming in higher quality than any DVD. Exactly the same model - entertainment as a service, replacing the need to invest any capital in equipment. I don't hear anybody moaning about that.

There might be an argument? I can’t even get an Uber where I live and I’m a stones throw from the m25.

 

[Dickster]

I think that the challenge here is how to differentially discourage car ownership and use.

I think we should discourage all avoidable car use, but we need to create an order of priority where the more polluting vehicles are discouraged more.

At current, with Congestion Charge and ULEZ (in London), this seems to be what TfL are doing. However, to actively encourage EVs is wrong, in my view. Buying (or leasing) a zero-exhaust-emissions private vehicle should be the least punitive of all, but punitive it should be.

And, as I said before, I am all in favour of exemptions from any anti-car punitive measures for the 20% or so of the UK pollution that do not live in an urban environment, as well as other specific groups such the disabled, or people with certain work shift patterns or on call (the NHS is a good example), etc.

You need a decent public transport system for that to happen. And that ain’t going to happen

 

[Darrell]

You need a decent public transport system for that to happen. And that ain’t going to happen

We’re pretty much getting there where we live in north west London. I’ve got a company work van which will be going soon due to a new job back up in central London and my Porsche hasn’t been on the road this year.

Our food shopping gets delivered.
I will soon return to cycling to work, the gym, the shops for a 4 pack.
Daughter gets the tube to college.
I get the train to visit my siblings.
Walk to and from the pub.
My wife works 3 miles away so she’ll get an Uber or use a company car.

Public transport where we live is very good. We have loads of buses, the Northern Line and Thameslink can get me into Kings Cross in 18 minutes.

In all honesty I’ve been meaning to buy a cheap ‘runabout’ for a while now but haven’t really bothered.

 

[Rich764089]

Tell me how you are polluting less by driving a (~22 year?) old car! The linked article disagrees with you.

Buying A New Car Is Greener Than Driving An Old One...Really

You've probably heard it at some point: A friend claims his older vehicle is far greener than the new car with much higher fuel economy you just bought That's because, he says, the old car didn't require all the energy and natural resources your car consumed as it was built. But is that older...

www.greencarreports.com

Unless of course you scrap your old car to buy a new one, even though it's working fine and most of the emissions are in manufacture. At least no government is stupid enough to implement a daft policy like that.....

 

[Rich764089]

We’re pretty much getting there where we live in north west London. I’ve got a company work van which will be going soon due to a new job back up in central London and my Porsche hasn’t been on the road this year.

Our food shopping gets delivered.
I will soon return to cycling to work, the gym, the shops for a 4 pack.
Daughter gets the tube to college.
I get the train to visit my siblings.
Walk to and from the pub.
My wife works 3 miles away so she’ll get an Uber or use a company car.

Public transport where we live is very good. We have loads of buses, the Northern Line and Thameslink can get me into Kings Cross in 18 minutes.

In all honesty I’ve been meaning to buy a cheap ‘runabout’ for a while now but haven’t really bothered.

And this is pretty much the exact opposite of my life I can walk 2 miles to get the one bus a day, but it doesn't go anywhere I need to go and takes hours to get there. I can walk to the train station if I have a few hours to kill and don't mind v taking my life in my hands on busy road with no footpaths. Public transport to work would take half a day or more; under an hour in a car. Same is true for visiting family and friends.

No shops within walking distance. I do have a pub i can walk to though

 

[Red C220]

The future of charging is also developing. Induction charging trials are already underway.

Think of the technology that allows you to charge your phone without plugging in , but scales up for EV's.

UK firm begins public trial of wireless EV chargers | Autocar

Bedfordshire-based trial will make use of ten Renault Zoe EVs with modified battery packs

www.autocar.co.uk

Much of the negative arguments about EV's and their future is based around current technology and how it's not scalable for the future. This simply assumes there is no progression in charging, infrastructure, technology, battery capacity and range. Human nature is not to stand still, fundamentally where there's money to be made from new tech there's generally someone pionerring it.

 

[Darrell]

And this is pretty much the exact opposite of my life I can walk 2 miles to get the one bus a day, but it doesn't go anywhere I need to go and takes hours to get there. I can walk to the train station if I have a few hours to kill and don't mind v taking my life in my hands on busy road with no footpaths. Public transport to work would take half a day or more; under an hour in a car. Same is true for visiting family and friends.

No shops within walking distance. I do have a pub i can walk to though

And this is what many people and groups don’t understand. To a lot of people a car is a necessity.

 

[Dippo]

Here's what my local council (Ealing) say about charging points on their website:

On-street EV charge points in your neighbourhood​

There is very high demand for more EV charge points and unfortunately it is not possible to install them in every location due to physical and electrical safety constraints and limited budgets.

Neighbourhoods that are more than 10 minutes walk (800 metres or ½ mile) from existing EV charge points are currently being prioritised for new installations.

Visit Source London to view their new EV charge point locations.

Demand is looked at collectively and used to assess provision for each neighbourhood area and there is no guarantee that EV charge points can be installed in any particular street. Unfortunately owing to delivery constraints we are not taking any additional requests currently.

 

[Alfie]

True. And, do you not agree that a responsible government should use the powers it is given by parliament, to shape the public's behaviour?

Thats exactly what has happened for the last two years. Given the division in society and the unrest id suggest it hasnt worked this time and unlikely to work ever.

 

[DrNick]

And this is what many people and groups don’t understand. To a lot of people a car is a necessity.

At the moment, people think a car is a necessity. Things will change. Things are changing. This thread has given an interesting cross-section of opinions, and having followed these types of arguments for several years now, I can see that opinion is slowly changing overall.
Financial markets try to look ahead to the future. Tesla is the most valuable car company, but it doesn't make the most cars. Fill in the gaps how you like - crystal ball gazing is fascinating, but we don't need a crystal ball to tell us that the days of everyday use of the ICE are numbered. The interesting thing is working out what will replace it and when.

 

[markjay]

Here's what my local council (Ealing) say about charging points on their website:

On-street EV charge points in your neighbourhood​

There is very high demand for more EV charge points and unfortunately it is not possible to install them in every location due to physical and electrical safety constraints and limited budgets.

Neighbourhoods that are more than 10 minutes walk (800 metres or ½ mile) from existing EV charge points are currently being prioritised for new installations.

Visit Source London to view their new EV charge point locations.

Demand is looked at collectively and used to assess provision for each neighbourhood area and there is no guarantee that EV charge points can be installed in any particular street. Unfortunately owing to delivery constraints we are not taking any additional requests currently.

The Council's comment regarding "limited budget" is particularly interesting. It implies that the Council incurs a cost, or, in other words, that the charging points are subsidised by the taxpayer, at least to some extent. I wonder if it's down to typical Council incompetence, or, more worryingly, the charging points cannot be operated profitably on commercial basis. One would hope that it will prove possible to deliver electricity for EVs via public chargers at an affordable cost for consumers, reasonable profit margins for the operators, and hopefully also some income for the Council (I.e. some sort of rent paid to the Council by the operators).

The other points raised i.e. "physical and electrical safety constraints" are obviously valid. The Council need to find appropriate locations for public chargers and understandably this might not be so easy, especially given the pressures that Council's already have for allocating public spaces to accommodate other green initiatives such secure public bike sheds, shared bicycles scheme bays, shared electric scooters schemes bays, etc.

As I said earlier, Westminster Council managed to solve the problem by fitting public chargers into lampposts, but I don't know how commercially viable this solution is. For example, Westminster might be a wealthy borough and the Council are actually subsidising the public chargers, but again I do not know what the commercial arrangements they have in place with Shell (who operate the lampost chargers).

Incidentally, when we moved our office to Hackney, we were told by the Council that they would install a public charger in the parking bay in front of our office FOC if our company used electric vehicles. At the time we didn't have any EVs, and now that we do, our office is closed and the issue became academic. That said, the Council's attitude towards requests made by businesses might be different to those made by residents.

 

[markjay]

And this is what many people and groups don’t understand. To a lot of people a car is a necessity.

Absolutely. Equally, to many it isn't. I would welcome a system that allows those who need cars to keep them use them, while offering practical and affordable alternatives to those who could manage without a car. In this context I think that pushing everyone to having an EV, is a mistake. I do think we need more EVs, but we also need to have less cars overall.

 

[Bellow]

At the moment, people think a car is a necessity. Things will change. Things are changing. This thread has given an interesting cross-section of opinions, and having followed these types of arguments for several years now, I can see that opinion is slowly changing overall.
Financial markets try to look ahead to the future. Tesla is the most valuable car company, but it doesn't make the most cars. Fill in the gaps how you like - crystal ball gazing is fascinating, but we don't need a crystal ball to tell us that the days of everyday use of the ICE are numbered. The interesting thing is working out what will replace it and when.

Beam me up Scotty - and get me away from the stupidity of being told I merely think I need a car when the reality is I need one.

 

[markjay]

Beam me up Scotty - and get me away from the stupidity of being told I merely think I need a car when the reality is I need one.

I fully accept that you do need car. But, as I keep saying.... many don't. No point in encouraging everyone to have a car just because some people need them. Those who need them, should have them. Those who don't, shouldn't. Personal opinion.

 

[Rich764089]

At the moment, people think a car is a necessity.

Should read: at the moment, a car is a necessity for many.