Whats your strategy for year 2030 / ban of ICE vehicles?

[MikeInWimbledon]

Which is why I find it hard to take net zero policies seriously. Net zero policies have so far had the effect of putting many of us in larger heavier cars and forced some manufacturers to stop making small ones. The implementation of net zero polices is rubbish if that is the practical outcome. Regardless of it's source of motive power, no one who drives a car bigger than they need (most of us, me included) can claim to be green. For governments to have subsidised the larger very high powered EV's is a madness that has increased our manufacturing carbon footprint, when we are supposed to be reducing it. I understand that many people like their large heavy vehicles but please don't pretend to be saving the planet just because it's an EV.

I'll start taking net zero seriously when governments start taking it seriously. That will mean small EV's are affordable and positively encouraged. It will mean large EV's being discouraged by taxation as high as large IC's. We are a long way yet from that happening. 2 years on road fund tax and a minimum of 5 years if ever on company car tax. It will mean in my book allowing small IC's or hybrids to continue in production if their carbon footprint is smaller than large EV's. Basically it will mean a more common sense approach that doesn't subsidise the well off at the expense of the less well off.

Amen. I had a terse conversation with RevenueCentreOne, at the weekend, who is flying to Edinburgh with three mates for a 24 hour Stag do.

Cost £1200 for four return flights. I "humbly" submitted that it wasn't "green" or cost effective to do that rather than save a grand by jumping into his very comfortable diesel and do the seven hour drive.

(And it would have made even more sense for this whole team of Southerners to just stay somewhere in the South East.)

Generally, we're all doing a lot of virtue signalling about EV's, while busily booking flights to Europe and the Rest of the World. Dis'na add up.

 

[Dryce]

According to the National Grid, 42.3 per cent of electricity from 2022 comes from renewables.....and 2022 was not a great year for it....not much wind.....should have been over 50%. That % is only going one way ....and that's up. However it still takes the average EV about 50 to 60,000 miles to break even carbon wise with an efficient diesel car.

But interestingly gas consumption was rising in 2021.

One of the interesting effects of lower powered electrical items in the house and office is less waste heat. So those banned incandescent bulbs and older higher powered computers being replaced by LEDs and lower powered computers may well mean a bit more work for the traditional gas central heating systems to do in winter.

So ironically - if using renewables for electricity generation - banning incandescent bulbs may well be a lost opportunity in winter to offset a small % of gas consumption.

 

[Dryce]

Generally, we're all doing a lot of virtue signalling about EV's, while busily booking flights to Europe and the Rest of the World. Dis'na add up.

Don't get me started on this!

My current beef is the younger family members pontificating about being green in their homes and then they and their peers arrange destination weddings with large numbers of family and friends crossing to other continents for what is effectively a well heeled garden party.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the eco-protestors we see on the TV haven't one this sort of thing.

 

[markjay]

But interestingly gas consumption was rising in 2021.

One of the interesting effects of lower powered electrical items in the house and office is less waste heat. So those banned incandescent bulbs and older higher powered computers being replaced by LEDs and lower powered computers may well mean a bit more work for the traditional gas central heating systems to do in winter.

So ironically - if using renewables for electricity generation - banning incandescent bulbs may well be a lost opportunity in winter to offset a small % of gas consumption.

Elsewhere on the globe, LED and greener computers brought about a reduction in electricity used for air-conditioning, I'm sure.....

 

[Dryce]

Elsewhere on the globe, LED and greener computers brought about a reduction in electricity used for air-conditioning, I'm sure.....

Traditionally there has been a lot more use of flourescent tubes in domestic installations in places like SE Asia.

There's no reason why they should *choose* LED replacements over incandescents.

And even if they don't if the electricity is generated to drive those incandescents could be generated via renewables.

Meanwhile in UK - we use a lot of gas - we have long winter nights where we use more lighting - and a large proportion of that supposed wastage by incandescent bulbs isn't straightforward waste.

 

[markjay]

Fwiw I thought MJ's avatar was perhaps some libertarian reference to Ross Ulbricht's Silk Road Marketplace.?

I really love that painting (or drawing, rather). Pablo was the greatest. These days he would have probably shared a cell with Harvey Weinstein, though

 

[markjay]

Traditionally there has been a lot more use of flourescent tubes in domestic installations in places like SE Asia.

There's no reason why they should *choose* LED replacements over incandescents.

And even if they don't if the electricity is generated to drive those incandescents could be generated via renewables.

Meanwhile in UK - we use a lot of gas - we have long winter nights where we use more lighting - and a large proportion of that supposed wastage by incandescent bulbs isn't straightforward waste.

They still use laptops and mobile phones... and new ones generate less heat than the old ones.

 

[Londonscottish]

Amen. I had a terse conversation with RevenueCentreOne, at the weekend, who is flying to Edinburgh with three mates for a 24 hour Stag do.

Cost £1200 for four return flights. I "humbly" submitted that it wasn't "green" or cost effective to do that rather than save a grand by jumping into his very comfortable diesel and do the seven hour drive.

(And it would have made even more sense for this whole team of Southerners to just stay somewhere in the South East.)

Generally, we're all doing a lot of virtue signalling about EV's, while busily booking flights to Europe and the Rest of the World. Dis'na add up.

I'll offset that by driving three passengers to the Ile de Re in a V8. Am I doing this right?

 

[ALFAitalia]

Don't get me started on this!

My current beef is the younger family members pontificating about being green in their homes and then they and their peers arrange destination weddings with large numbers of family and friends crossing to other continents for what is effectively a well heeled garden party.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the eco-protestors we see on the TV haven't one this sort of thing.

Is there a carbon cost there?......that plane would be going to the Caribbean (or wherever) with or without your younger family members on it!! Better than having empty seats on it!

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I'll offset that by driving three passengers to the Ile de Re in a V8. Am I doing this right?

Sounds good to me.

Can't see that it would be cheaper or greener to fly four people to La 'Rochelle - even if the flights were there.

Not sure about my friend who's there at the moment, having taken taken roller bags onto the Eurostar and TGV. His wife must pack lighter than mine.

 

[StMarks]

I really love that painting (or drawing, rather). Pablo was the greatest. These days he would have probably shared a cell with Harvey Weinstein, though

MiW wins then (no surprise there ! ).

I sincerely apologise for considering you were affiliating yourself with a libertarian standpoint..

In mitigation, the logo bears a passing resemblance ? (and a philistine such as I, is not going to be as familiar with the works of Pablo Picasso).

 

[Darrell]

I'll offset that by driving three passengers to the Ile de Re in a V8. Am I doing this right?

4 blokes on a stag do to the Ile de Re!!

 

[markjay]

MiW wins then (no surprise there ! ).

I sincerely apologise for considering you were affiliating yourself with a libertarian standpoint..

In mitigation, the logo bears a passing resemblance ? (and a philistine such as I, is not going to be as familiar with the works of Pablo Picasso).

I am not offended that you thought I was related to the Silk Road website, but I wonder how come you knew their logo.........?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The plural of anecdote isn’t data

But how does your experience compare to mine?

All of the EV users I know are young to early middle aged men doing relatively low mileages. Sub 50 and sub 12k pa. All EV enthusiasts but there because they’re milking the Company car tax break.

All the higher mileage drivers are still in diesels.

No-one I know regularly drives over 80mph

All would benefit from switching to 60+mpg smaller lighter vehicles.

Yet that’s not on anyone’s agenda: regulators, politicians, or motor industry.

I know more than 100 people with an EV, and I’d estimate that of those:

• Around 90% are company cars and 10% privately owned (or financed)
• Around 80% between 30 and 50 years old, with 20% over 50
• Around 70% are mostly used by male drivers and 30% female drivers
• Close to 100% are premium and/or full-size, just a couple of city cars
• Close to 100% have replaced a similar premium or city ICE car
• Close to 100% have at least one more car in the household
• Around 10% have more than one EV in the household
• Close to 100% use an EV as their main car, including holidays
• Jaguar iPace is by far the most common, with BMW a distant second
• Tesla Model 3/Y is most popular when there is a free choice of EV brand
• Porsche Taycan has the most positive and least negative comments
• Close to 100% wouldn’t want to go back to ICE at all…

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Their lack of success in forcing the public to acquiesce to their demands is another issue. Climate alarmism after all is an extreme point of view so unlikely to ever gain traction. Their narrative being gifted a platform was my point.

What’s the alternative, deliberately don’t report on it in the news? Gets a bit close to censorship then.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

But do you agree with my generalisation that it’s seldom the Ladies who are buying EV’s and seldom the over 50’s ….?

That’s really just a function of the fact that the majority of EVs are company cars, and most company car users will be male and aged 30-60 years.

The same would be true if looking at the demographic of drivers of new ICE cars from Astra/A-Class and larger, as they’re also typically company cars.

Small city cars are often bought as personal purchases by females, but the cost difference for EVs in this class is greater (and not offset by BIK benefits).

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I know more than 100 people with an EV, and I’d estimate that of those:

• Around 90% are company cars and 10% privately owned (or financed)
• Around 80% between 30 and 50 years old, with 20% over 50
• Around 70% are mostly used by male drivers and 30% female drivers
• Close to 100% are premium and/or full-size, just a couple of city cars
• Close to 100% have replaced a similar premium or city ICE car
• Close to 100% have at least one more car in the household
• Around 10% have more than one EV in the household
• Close to 100% use an EV as their main car, including holidays
• Jaguar iPace is by far the most common, with BMW a distant second
• Tesla Model 3/Y is most popular when there is a free choice of EV brand
• Porsche Taycan has the most positive and least negative comments
• Close to 100% wouldn’t want to go back to ICE at all…

Understood. I used to “own” a fleet of several hundred cars for a well-known Investment Bank. A similar profile of company car users: mainly men and all well-heeled and under 40 (not 50), albeit high earning but not necessarily wealthy.

I’m pointing at the nation as a whole, beyond the 750,000 who have company cars. (The ten EVs you know that aren’t company cars.)

Any company car user that isn’t in an EV is a fool.

But how do we get the other 34 million car users into EVs ? We can’t just wait for company car users to pass on their vehicles after their four years or 40,000 miles.

If half the population is over 50, how do we get them to buy into an IPad on wheels? (Not only do they remember what happened to XP, they also jump between cars more often than the average company car user)

If half the population is female and doesn’t prioritise money on cars over family, clothes or food, how do we get her to pay £40k for a Fiat 500e instead of much less for a Fiat 500 ?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Understood. I used to “own” a fleet of several hundred cars for a well-known Investment Bank.

I’m pointing at the nation as a whole, beyond the 750,000 who have company cars. (The ten EVs you know that aren’t company cars.)

Any company car user that isn’t in an EV is a fool.

But how do we get the other 34 million car users into EVs ? We can’t just wait for company car users to pass on their vehicles after their four years or 40,000 miles.

In the same way that they got into new large/expensive ICE cars, fleets took the brunt of new car cost, and individuals have traditionally bought them 2, 3 or 4 years later when they have been depreciated.

Whilst the tax breaks appear to benefitting business and those who many might see as needing the least support, those tax breaks are designed to create sizeable used EV stock and secondhand market.

I don’t know many people queuing up to privately buy a brand new Jaguar iPace with their own money, but I didn’t know many buying brand new BMW 530d either. Both are typically company cars.

By 2030 there will be oodles of used EVs kicking around at price points between buttons and shed loads.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

In the same way that they got into new large/expensive ICE cars, fleets took the brunt of new car cost, and individuals have traditionally bought them 2, 3 or 4 years later when they have been depreciated.

Whilst the tax breaks appear to benefitting business and those who many might see as needing the least support, those tax breaks are designed to create sizeable used EV stock and secondhand market.

I don’t know many people queuing up to privately buy a brand new Jaguar iPace with their own money, but I didn’t know many buying brand new BMW 530d either. Both are typically company cars.

By 2030 there will be oodles of used EVs kicking around at price points between buttons and shed loads.

“Oodles?” A million at most. (Another seven years of company cars being dropped into the used market at a rate of 200k a year,)

About 200k company cars are released into the wild each year, as they come off fleet. That’s not going to convert the 34 million to EV.

The used market has never been dominated by ex-company car spec motors. (Mondeos, Vectras, 318’s, Jaguars and E220’s). To convert the country, we’ll need to give bigger tax incentives to EVs because they’re just too expensive compared to ICE

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

“Oodles?” A million at most. (Another seven years of company cars being dropped into the used market at a rate of 200k a year,)

About 200k company cars are released into the wild each year, as they come off fleet. That’s not going to convert the 34 million to EV.

The used market has never been dominated by ex-company car spec motors. (Mondeos, Vectras, 318’s, Jaguars and E220’s). To convert the country, we’ll need to give bigger tax incentives to EVs because they’re just too expensive compared to ICE

There is no intention of having everyone in an EV by 2030 though, but enough to ensure a plentiful supply to trickle through to second, third, fourth, fifth owners.