Whats your strategy for year 2030 / ban of ICE vehicles?

[Tonye]

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Hi,
There is a huge amount of misinformation & fear being spread about EVs at the moment.
The Daily Fail seems to be running a concerted series of stories that they release on a daily basis.
First it was Rowan Atkinson regretting buying an EV
Then it was a government minister regretting her purchase.
Then it was a story about EV residual values in the USA - not the UK.
Then there was a story about tyres
Then today I saw a story about a Tesla Model Y on fire.
There is clearly a huge behind the scenes lobby from oil industry (who see themselves losing sales) & legacy auto makers (who are trying hard to make EVs economically that people actually want to buy).
Both these lobbies want to stretch ICE car production as long as possible.
VW are in big trouble because their pathetic attempt at EVs is a big flop - poor range, poor performance & abysmal software (‘that they farmed out to some cheap company, allegedly).
Many or most of the above stories are either partially or totally false!
Just a few examples - a Tesla Model 3 (a purpose built EV) weighs about the same as a BMW 3 series saloon.
EVs that have been built on conventional car chassis are indeed heavier - but these are because the legacy auto makers have hurriedly & lazily introduced these badly designed vehicles to the market, They have no chance of making a decent profit on these vehicles - compared with one designed from the ground up to be an EV.
EVs hardly ever catch fire - but always make front page news when they do!
A petrol engine is only around 30% efficient at converting raw petrol energy to motion. You also need to transport the petrol to the filling station - upon inefficient diesel trucks.
Electric motors are far more efficient and you can transmit the electricity along to the chargers in a much more efficient way than diesel or petrol.
Many EVs have heat pumps rather than conventional AC systems - these are also far more energy efficient.
The misinformation is so rife at the moment - along with the common sound bites being spouted by journalists who don’t know better!
Cheers
Steve

Some say it’s misinformation by the wicked oil industry

All we know is that the European car industry is unable to deliver cost effective EVs now and within the foreseeable future.

While women, (50% of drivers) and men over 60 (20% of drivers) are unconvinced of the benefits of the current IPad on wheels designs)

(For elimination of doubt, I will buy one next year, but I’ve got a mountain to shift to persuade MrsMiW to convert,). If only the car rental firms offered EV’s.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

EU régulation: written by politicians and bureaucrats who have no understanding of the industry

 

[markjay]

All we know is that the European car industry is unable to deliver cost effective EVs now and within the foreseeable future.

Very true. And for this reason, there's a very real possibility that European automakers will shrink to become niche market suppliers, with Chinese and Korean firms becoming the main players. Perhaps in the same way that the manufacturing of electronics has all but moved from the West to the far East.

The two leading brands in LCD displays and home entertainment for example, are currently Samsung and LG. Where are Philips and Marantz and Zenith and Telefunken and Siemens and Grundig and Blaupunkt today - all household names in the previous century - and when have you last seen a TV with their name on it?

The West always had an advantage when it came to the manufacturing of complex mechanical goods, where understanding of metrology and the availability of costly metalworks machinery was critical. But remove the engine and the transmission and what are we left with? A few suspension components, an electric motor, and lots of chips and electronics. The rest is software, that can be written by teams of programmers physically based anywhere on the planet.

I wonder how long will the names Mercedes-Benz, Audi, and BMW retain their market value.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The plural of anecdote isn’t data

But how does your experience compare to mine?

All of the EV users I know are young to early middle aged men doing relatively low mileages. Sub 50 and sub 12k pa. All EV enthusiasts but there because they’re milking the Company car tax break.

All the higher mileage drivers are still in diesels.

No-one I know regularly drives over 80mph

All would benefit from switching to 60+mpg smaller lighter vehicles.

Yet that’s not on anyone’s agenda: regulators, politicians, or motor industry.

 

[Steveml63]

You do realise that your neck of the woods has the highest electricity consumption per person, "in the world" (said in GC's voice) - they think that petroleum-based energy is great because.... it can be used to produce electricity.

OK, they do like their Veyrons and Lambos, but these are just toys.. .

Yes - of course it has high electricity consumption - it is currently 40 degrees C here (it cooled down a bit today!!) but with high humidity the heat effect is making it feel like 46 degrees C (53% humidity with 26 degrees dew point) - when the sun goes down the effective temperature will rise as the humidity rises to around 70% humidity - like being in a sauna!
We get 6 months of extreme weather, 3 months of hot weather and 3 months of blissful cool winter weather!
This whole region is getting hotter & hotter each year - such that areas will become difficult for humans to inhabit.
The oil wealth of the UAE is mainly invested in their sovereign wealth funds - amongst the biggest in the world (after Norway).
These funds are massively investing in renewable energy projects around the world - to help mitigate the effects of climate change and for the years in the future when the oil runs dry.

 

[Dryce]

(For elimination of doubt, I will buy one next year, but I’ve got a mountain to shift to persuade MrsMiW to convert,). If only the car rental firms offered EV’s.

They do ... or did.

I've been offered them as an 'upgrade'. When I asked bout the range - they would say about 180 miles. Not good enough for my purposes. I got the impression that people don't want to hire basic EVs which is why they would be voluntarily offered - and that the price of hiring a Tesla was into silly money territory so they didn't want to pay for non-basic EVs.

(I haven't tried to hire a car for the last 6 months so things may have changed).

All would benefit from switching to 60+mpg smaller lighter vehicles.

Hybrids seem to be muddying the water a bit. They should be a very good pragmatic solution. Except they don't really seem to work very well unless your usage patterns exactly match what they deliver. Poor intermediate to long distance MPG and additional cost for limited benefit.

I'm also disappointed by the poor consumption figures that some of drivers I know actually achieve. Some of it is down to speed and some of it is just down to poor strategy and control. But it's all very well the industry making cars that manage 60+ mpg but if people drive in a manner that only gets 40 to 45 then the good work is undone.

 

[markjay]

The plural of anecdote isn’t data

But how does your experience compare to mine?

All of the EV users I know are young to early middle aged men doing relatively low mileages. Sub 50 and sub 12k pa. All EV enthusiasts but there because they’re milking the Company car tax break.

All the higher mileage drivers are still in diesels.

No-one I know regularly drives over 80mph

All would benefit from switching to 60+mpg smaller lighter vehicles.

Yet that’s not on anyone’s agenda: regulators, politicians, or motor industry.

Answers below:

Mrs MJ and myself are well over 60, and we love the EV. It's smooth and quiet, and runs on cheap electricity. What's not to like?

We do very little miles annually, mainly because we try and walk or use public transport wherever possible.

And yes, I got the EV because of the very generous tax breaks you get on a business lease. I would have otherwise stuck with my trusty and much loved C180 (now sold).

I didn't (knowingly) go over 70mph in any car I've driven in the UK, for the past ten years at least (no comment regarding my earlier life)

A smaller vehicle is no good for me, two grandchildren and lots of paraphernalia (child seats and pushchairs and prams and what have you) mean that I need a decent size car for the occasion that I do use it for the benefit of the family.

ICE fuel consumption is irrelevant while electricity for EVs is not taxed.

The bottom line? I wasn't an EV Evangelist before I got mine, and I am not one now, but having lived with an EV for almost two years now, I'd say that about 80% of the concerns that non-EV owners raise, have been proved to be wrong. It's not for everyone, granted, not yet anyway, but much of the worrying is totally unfounded.

 

[Benzowner]

I have mentioned this before on another thread. How long will EV batteries last? Example my iPhone is 2 years old and now has the capacity of only 80% compared to new, such failing will seriously diminish the range of EV's. How good will EV's be when the temperature drops below freezing? There are plenty of areas in the world where the temperature drops too well in minus figures and this would result in a 50% reduction in performance.

I think EV's maybe the way to go, but I do feel we are being rushed headlong into another dieselgate scandal.

 

[ChipChop]

Not sure that I agree with that. I would be surprised if their protests are actually resulting in any movement in public perception towards EV use. If anything I believe that it could actually be having the opposite effect.

Their lack of success in forcing the public to acquiesce to their demands is another issue. Climate alarmism after all is an extreme point of view so unlikely to ever gain traction. Their narrative being gifted a platform was my point.

 

[ChipChop]

Strangely - here in the UAE, where petrol is dirt cheap (and there are no diesel cars) - there is a huge surge in EV sales.
Both our petrol cars have now been replaced by full electric vehicles and we are very happy with our decision to do this - both on financial & environmental grounds.

The UAE is in the enviable position of being energy independent. The UK sadly has to rely on imports of raw fuel for our energy hence inflation. Special thanks (sarcasm) also goes out to to whoever blew up the Nordstream pipeline 10 months ago.

 

[ALFAitalia]

@Benzowner
Tesla claim 300,000 to 500,000 mile battery life......so in reality it will outlast the car for 99% of users.

 

[Dryce]

Answers below:

Mrs MJ and myself are well over 60, and we love the EV. It's smooth and quiet, and runs on cheap electricity. What's not to like?

We do very little miles annually, mainly because we try and walk or use public transport wherever possible.

And yes, I got the EV because of the very generous tax breaks you get on a business lease. I would have otherwise stuck with my trusty and much loved C180 (now sold).

And so we have the dilletante economy happily hustling those who can benefit from the tax incentives into purchasing cars witha disproportionate ecological impact when manufactured into a low mileage usage pattern that presumably means there will be no recovery of that ecological cost against lower impact ecological use.

And .... this is a 'good thing'.

(Sorry @markjay this is not a personal criticism because what you're doing makes perfect personal logical sense - but those making this policy need to be held to account).

 

[Dryce]

@Benzowner
Tesla claim 300,000 to 500,000 mile battery life......so in reality it will outlast the car for 99% of users.

Question is then how long do the cars last?

So if the cars manage 100,000 or 200,000 miles then Tesla should be able to recycle the used directly battery into another vehicle without any sort of major refurbishment and those cars with second use batteries should quite happily go another 1000,000 to 200,000 miles?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

They do ... or did.

I've been offered them as an 'upgrade'. When I asked bout the range - they would say about 180 miles. Not good enough for my purposes. I got the impression that people don't want to hire basic EVs which is why they would be voluntarily offered - and that the price of hiring a Tesla was into silly money territory so they didn't want to pay for non-basic EVs.

(I haven't tried to hire a car for the last 6 months so things may have changed).



Hybrids seem to be muddying the water a bit. They should be a very good pragmatic solution. Except they don't really seem to work very well unless your usage patterns exactly match what they deliver. Poor intermediate to long distance MPG and additional cost for limited benefit.

I'm also disappointed by the poor consumption figures that some of drivers I know actually achieve. Some of it is down to speed and some of it is just down to poor strategy and control. But it's all very well the industry making cars that manage 60+ mpg but if people drive in a manner that only gets 40 to 45 then the good work is undone.

I’ve been trying to rent an EV in the States for a six week trip. Theoretically easy because Deals have been done. In practice there’s a chunky premium to be paid

When quoting 60+ mpg I didn’t mean hybrid, I meant Focus or even BMW 3 series

Hybrid performance is laughable. People proudly talk 50 or 60mpg, but forget that they’re pouring electricity into the vehicle as well.

And for the guys doing real mileage, without a company car scheme, that Astra or Focus is far more affordable than the £35k hatchback

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Answers below:

Mrs MJ and myself are well over 60, and we love the EV. It's smooth and quiet, and runs on cheap electricity. What's not to like?

We do very little miles annually, mainly because we try and walk or use public transport wherever possible.

And yes, I got the EV because of the very generous tax breaks you get on a business lease. I would have otherwise stuck with my trusty and much loved C180 (now sold).

I didn't (knowingly) go over 70mph in any car I've driven in the UK, for the past ten years at least (no comment regarding my earlier life)

A smaller vehicle is no good for me, two grandchildren and lots of paraphernalia (child seats and pushchairs and prams and what have you) mean that I need a decent size car for the occasion that I do use it for the benefit of the family.

ICE fuel consumption is irrelevant while electricity for EVs is not taxed.

The bottom line? I wasn't an EV Evangelist before I got mine, and I am not one now, but having lived with an EV for almost two years now, I'd say that about 80% of the concerns that non-EV owners raise, have been proved to be wrong. It's not for everyone, granted, not yet anyway, but much of the worrying is totally unfounded.

It was a generalisation, and we know you are exceptional. (And getting it on a tax break).

But do you agree with my generalisation that it’s seldom the Ladies who are buying EV’s and seldom the over 50’s ….?

 

[Dryce]

Hybrid performance is laughable. People proudly talk 50 or 60mpg, but forget that they’re pouring electricity into the vehicle as well.

I mentioned hybrids because the emphasis on developing and selling non-complex high MPG petrol vehicles seems to have stalled. I think hybrids have distracted the market.

 

[markjay]

The UAE is in the enviable position of being energy independent. The UK sadly has to rely on imports of raw fuel for our energy hence inflation. Special thanks (sarcasm) also goes out to to whoever blew up the Nordstream pipeline 10 months ago.

Cross-dependencies between countries is a must if humanity is ever to progress beyond the current state of affairs.

Sharing of resources and goods (aka 'import-export') and shared production and manufacturing platforms and chains is the key to having an economy that is globally optimised.

Over the past millennias we've done that by having individual tribes group into larger communities and developing commerce between them.

The International Space Station was an amazing demonstration of what humanity can achieve when we join forces for a common goal and set aside our differences.

The only real issue is trust - do we trust the others not to abuse the cooperation for their own ends? And that's a major issue.

I just hope that those who say that the UK shouldn't be dependent on imports from other countries say so in desperation, rather than because they think that if all went back to live in small insular clans we'll have a brighter future.

 

[sgregory124]

Answers below:

Mrs MJ and myself are well over 60, and we love the EV. It's smooth and quiet, and runs on cheap electricity. What's not to like?

Just where are you buying your ‘cheap’ electricity from? This is the great fallacy that the pro-EV crowd love to perpetuate and it drives me nuts.

Electricity is the most expensive it has ever been - there’s nothing cheap about it, unless you are fortunate enough to have solar at home or some other means of independent generation.

 

[markjay]

Just where are you buying your ‘cheap’ electricity from? This is the great fallacy that the pro-EV crowd love to perpetuate and it drives me nuts.

Electricity is the most expensive it has ever been - there’s nothing cheap about it, unless you are fortunate enough to have solar at home or some other means of independent generation.

Sorry, I should have said that the electricity for my EV is cheaper (by far) per mile than the petrol for my other (ICE) car.

But yes, it has gone up... It used to be 24p per kWh before Ukraine, it went up and back down and now it's 37p per kWh, but yes it's still more expensive than it was before. A kWh get me around 3 to 5 miles on average, depending on driving conditions.

That's the price from the lampost charger outside my house; if you're lucky enough to have a driveway then it's even (much) cheaper.