Whats your strategy for year 2030 / ban of ICE vehicles?

[Benzowner]

@Benzowner
Tesla claim 300,000 to 500,000 mile battery life......so in reality it will outlast the car for 99% of users.

And how much is a Tesla? Well out of my range, so another question, who is likely to want to buy a second hand EV, certainly not many.

 

[sgregory124]

That's the price from the lampost charger outside my house; if you're lucky enough to have a driveway then it's even (much) cheaper.

That depends if you call 29.78p/kWh as ‘much cheaper’, which is what I currently pay …

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Just where are you buying your ‘cheap’ electricity from? This is the great fallacy that the pro-EV crowd love to perpetuate and it drives me nuts.

All marginal electricity for the UK comes from fossil fuels for at least the next two decades.

Even if we take the solar from our houses and put it in the car, it’s still power that we could have put back into the Grid to reduce fossil fuel usage.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

And how much is a Tesla? Well out of my range, so another question, who is likely to want to buy a second hand EV, certainly not many.

Resale values are strong for Tesla. Ok, they still depreciate a lot, but you’re looking at more than £30k for a 2017. The equivalent of three, better made, low mileage, 60+ mpg Ford Focus 1.0’s

 

[Dryce]

The UAE is in the enviable position of being energy independent. The UK sadly has to rely on imports of raw fuel for our energy hence inflation. Special thanks (sarcasm) also goes out to to whoever blew up the Nordstream pipeline 10 months ago.

Hmmmmm.

But oddly in the UK all that supposed wind power that we use for electricity isn't going anywhere other the than the UK ... but it seems to have racked up cost as well.

 

[ChipChop]

Hmmmmm.

But oddly in the UK all that supposed wind power that we use for electricity isn't going anywhere other the than the UK ... but it seems to have racked up cost as well.

Renewables are not cheap.

 

[Dryce]

Sorry, I should have said that the electricity for my EV is cheaper (by far) per mile than the petrol for my other (ICE) car.

So at 3 to 5 miles per kWh at at 37p - that's between about 12p and 7.5p per mile.

The equivalent mpg needed to match that on price at £1.40 per litre would be between about 53 and 85.

(Or if the government wanted to make ICE vehicles more attractive it could adjust the fuel duty a bit and substantially reduce these mpg numbers).

Economically EVs just do not compete on a level playing field. The only things that make them appear to be viable are tax and regulatory incentives vs tax disincentives and regulatory disincentives.

 

[Dryce]

Renewables are not cheap.

Well in addition to that argument - my complaint is - that with no increase in the raw input pricing ('the wind') and nowhere else to sell the output - the price goes up.

 

[markjay]

And so we have the dilletante economy happily hustling those who can benefit from the tax incentives into purchasing cars witha disproportionate ecological impact when manufactured into a low mileage usage pattern that presumably means there will be no recovery of that ecological cost against lower impact ecological use.

And .... this is a 'good thing'.

(Sorry @markjay this is not a personal criticism because what you're doing makes perfect personal logical sense - but those making this policy need to be held to account).

Non taken.

For the record, I think that the plethora of tax breaks given to EVs (and more so to business users) are pure madness.

We want less cars, not more cars, regardless of how they are propelled. A point I have been making repeatedly on this very motoring forum (and it's only thanks to the kind nature of Mbclub members that I haven't been tarred and feathered and driven out of this forum yet....).

Having said said, I am not the saint that my public persona might suggest... While I can't fathom why my EV is exempt from VED, Congestion Charge, and Parking fees (in Westminster), or why electricity for EVs isn't taxed, I am not going to volunteer and pay taxes that aren't due.....

However, I am aware that the tax breakes are slowly being withdrawn, and in spite of the fact that this means I'll have to pay more, I think it's a good thing. Or, rather, I don't necessarily think that taxes are a good thing in all circumstances, just that taxing EVs the same as ICE cars seems sensible to me.

 

[markjay]

So at 3 to 5 miles per kWh at at 37p - that's between about 12p and 7.5p per mile.

The equivalent mpg needed to match that on price at £1.40 per litre would be between about 53 and 85.

(Or if the government wanted to make ICE vehicles more attractive it could adjust the fuel duty a bit and substantially reduce these mpg numbers).

Economically EVs just do not compete on a level playing field. The only things that make them appear to be viable are tax and regulatory incentives vs tax disincentives and regulatory disincentives.

Your calculationsl isn't quite correct, because EVs and ICE behave in opposite ways.

My EV's energy consumption is based on mostly city driving, where my ICE barely managed 20mpg.

On Motorways, my ICE car could do 50mpg, but my EV would struggle with 3 miles per kWh.

So in my case, the EV is far cheaper. If you regularly drive it at 70mph on the motorway, a Diesel car will probably cost the same or less per mile.

 

[ALFAitalia]

All marginal electricity for the UK comes from fossil fuels for at least the next two decades.

Even if we take the solar from our houses and put it in the car, it’s still power that we could have put back into the Grid to reduce fossil fuel usage.

According to the National Grid, 42.3 per cent of electricity from 2022 comes from renewables.....and 2022 was not a great year for it....not much wind.....should have been over 50%. That % is only going one way ....and that's up. However it still takes the average EV about 50 to 60,000 miles to break even carbon wise with an efficient diesel car.

 

[190]

All would benefit from switching to 60+mpg smaller lighter vehicles.

Yet that’s not on anyone’s agenda: regulators, politicians, or motor industry.

Which is why I find it hard to take net zero policies seriously. Net zero policies have so far had the effect of putting many of us in larger heavier cars and forced some manufacturers to stop making small ones. The implementation of net zero polices is rubbish if that is the practical outcome. Regardless of it's source of motive power, no one who drives a car bigger than they need (most of us, me included) can claim to be green. For governments to have subsidised the larger very high powered EV's is a madness that has increased our manufacturing carbon footprint, when we are supposed to be reducing it. I understand that many people like their large heavy vehicles but please don't pretend to be saving the planet just because it's an EV.

I'll start taking net zero seriously when governments start taking it seriously. That will mean small EV's are affordable and positively encouraged. It will mean large EV's being discouraged by taxation as high as large IC's. We are a long way yet from that happening. 2 years on road fund tax and a minimum of 5 years if ever on company car tax. It will mean in my book allowing small IC's or hybrids to continue in production if their carbon footprint is smaller than large EV's. Basically it will mean a more common sense approach that doesn't subsidise the well off at the expense of the less well off.

 

[markjay]

That depends if you call 29.78p/kWh as ‘much cheaper’, which is what I currently pay …

There used to be cheaper prices for those using of peak / night tarrif, but this might not be available everywhere.

At any rate, you'd still be paying nearly 20% less if you charged your car at home instead of on the lampost in the street.

 

[markjay]

....For governments to have subsidised the larger very high powered EV's is a madness...

Agreed. Come to think of it, instead of getting us all onto EVs, perhaps it would have been sufficient to simply ban all ICE cars above (say) 1.6L? After all, no one needs[/] an AMG (or a Range, or a Ferrari, etc etc).

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I wonder how long will the names Mercedes-Benz, Audi, and BMW retain their market value.

Or will the West design, market and brand, while factories in South East Asia manufacture?

See mobile phone technology, and consumer electronics generally?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Agreed. Come to think of it, instead of getting us all onto EVs, perhaps it would have been sufficient to simply ban all ICE cars above (say) 1.6L? After all, no one needs[/] an AMG (or a Range, or a Ferrari, etc etc).

Wash your mouth out with soapy water !!

Alternatively, would it be simpler to ban, or heavily tax, ICE vehicles above a certain CO2 emission level ?

Then leave the technologists to work out how to play with it, as they always do...

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Having said said, I am not the saint that my public persona might suggest...

What's saintly about Sancho Panza
or even Don Quixote?

(I've always assumed that you were the former: of good behaviour, but not exactly a saint)

 

[StMarks]

What's saintly about Sancho Panza
or even Don Quixote?

(I've always assumed that you were the former: of good behaviour, but not exactly a saint)

Fwiw I thought MJ's avatar was perhaps some libertarian reference to Ross Ulbricht's Silk Road Marketplace.?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

According to the National Grid, 42.3 per cent of electricity from 2022 comes from renewables.....and 2022 was not a great year for it....not much wind.....should have been over 50%. That % is only going one way ....and that's up. However it still takes the average EV about 50 to 60,000 miles to break even carbon wise with an efficient diesel car.

Exactly, so when you use electricity to power your EV, you increase the demand on the Grid and that extra demand is serviced from fossil fuel, until we eliminate fossil fuel altogether.

You can't argue that 42.3% of your EV electrons were from renewable sources in 2022. If you hadn't used those renewable electrons, they would have been used for something else, and our demand for fossil fuel based electricity would have been lower.

OK - you CAN argue that electricity is more efficient that burning Dino Juice. I'm just pointing out that every EV we put on the road results in more fossil fuel generated electricity being used to power that EV - until we eliminate fossil fuel in the electricity generation process.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Fwiw I thought MJ's avatar was perhaps some libertarian reference to Ross Ulbricht's Silk Road Marketplace.?

I assumed that was just a side hustle to pay for his EV habit.