• The Forums are now open to new registrations, adverts are also being de-tuned.

Wheel stuck to hub

I had a "stuck" wheel once...rang Moblio rescue at MB and the nice man on the phone asked me to try lifting the car on the jack, slackening off the wheel bolts and then lowering the car back onto the ground....low and behold, the wheel parted from the hub!! Simple and a lot quicker than waiting for Mobilo or AA to come and assist!

Need a layer of grease between hub and wheel to stop corrosion...also bolts should be smeared with grease for similar reasons.
 
It's a really bad idea as the bolts will be stretched much more than intended. If the bolts are torqued when dry they should undo easily.
Greasing bolts prior to assembly is a common amateur mechanic faux pas for the reason mentioned by Rory, and can have dire consequences.
 
I had a recent puncture on my way to work that required me to call out the AA (rather embarrassingly) as the wheel was stuck to the hub.

The nice guy from the AA got the wheel off by careful use of a plastic mallet on the inside of the wheel.

Now, this has got me thinking as I really don't want to be in this situation again and I am also heading on a 500 mile trip next weekend.

Should I remove all the wheels, clean all the hub faces and wheel inners and apply copper grease to the mating surfaces then refit the wheels ?

Should I just get a plastic mallet ?

I used to drive coaches with alloy wheels and our advice from the engineers was to leave wheel on with studs on loosely and roll fwds/backwards to free the wheel. We were expected to change wheels ourselves (not that I ever had to). I don't know how big the mallet would have to have been to shift those things!

What do any of the engineer advisors on the forum think?
 
Wet or Dry ?

As to greasing or not I copied this from Mitsubishi Motors Tech Bulletin Clearly there are some common misunderstandings and "Chineses Whispers" attached to this subject.

Oil or grease must NOT be applied to the nut seat surface.
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Wheel nut tightening torque vs. wheel bolt axial tension [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]3. Wet tightening stabilizes the axial tension of the wheel bolt at the target value. [/FONT]
Wet tightening is another critical point in tightening wheel nuts. Wet tightening is to tighten wheel nuts with engine oil, wheel bearing grease or chassis grease apply-ing lubricant to the threads of the nut and bolt. Why is wet tightening better than dry tightening?
In the case of dry tightening, as the graph below shows, due to the variable friction (coefficient of friction) of threads, the axial tension of the wheel bolt fluctuates to-ward the lower limit even if the wheel nut is tightened to the specified torque. This could lead to a situation where the wheel nut is thought to have been tightened enough but it has not.
By contrast, wet tightening makes the nut threads have a lower friction and be more stabilized due to the oil/grease on the threads. This reduces the fluctuation in the axial tension of the wheel bolt and ensures that the wheel nut is securely tightened when tightened to the specified torque.
(However, never use molybdenum disulfide based oil or grease because it causes excessive tightening.) Also, even in the case of wet tightening, if the thread or nut seat surface is damaged, the sliding of threads becomes poor, causing the same problem as that of dry tightening. To prevent this, always check the threads of the wheel bolt and nut and the nut seat surface of the wheel carefully before tighten-ing wheel nuts.
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Structure and oil application point for 8 stud bolts (JIS type) and 10 stud bolt wheel bolt (ISO type) [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]
[/FONT]Fluctuation of wheel bolt axial tension in case of wet tightening
Fluctuation of wheel bolt axial tension in case of dry tightening
[FONT=Courier New,Courier New][FONT=Courier New,Courier New]ƒzƒC[ƒ‹ƒiƒbƒg’÷•tƒgƒ‹ƒN[/FONT][/FONT]Wheel nut tightening torque
[FONT=Courier New,Courier New][FONT=Courier New,Courier New]ƒzƒC[ƒ‹ƒ{ƒ‹ƒgŽ²—Í[/FONT][/FONT]Axial tension of wheel bolt
Oil application
Oil application
Brake drum
Wheel
Hub
Wheel bolt
Wheel nut
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]8 stud bolts (JIS type) [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]​

[FONT=Arial,Arial]10 stud bolt wheel bolt (ISO type) [/FONT]
[/FONT]Brake drum
Wheel
Hub
Wheel bolt
Wheel nut [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Dry tightening is likely to make the tightening force insufficient. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]
[/FONT]
 
Last edited:
Regarding releasing the wheel, I did read that if you put the bolts back and back them off a small amount, then let the car down off the jack and drive it (a few feet) the wheel will normally release straight away.

+1 for this one, worked a treat on my rear wheel earlier this year. I wasn't happy with using a mallet/kicking as it was on the service jack.
 
As to greasing or not I copied this from Mitsubishi Motors Tech Bulletin Clearly there are some common misunderstandings and "Chineses Whispers" attached to this subject.

That's all fine if the torque values are given assuming "wet" tightening - most aren't.

The note talks about 8 & 10 bolt wheels - so it's nothing to do with a car!

It also notes that you can't use certain kinds of lubricant, so it's pretty specific.
 
Same as Olly, anti seize spray grease NEVER copper grease sets up Galvanic corrosion and is the best grinding paste you can get so could actually make it harder to get your wheel off should you need to.
 
+1 for this one, worked a treat on my rear wheel earlier this year. I wasn't happy with using a mallet/kicking as it was on the service jack.
Worked for me but I had to brake as it wasn't the driven wheel (on my old Volvo)
 
Could someone come up with a brand name for "Anti Seize Spray Grease" please?
I dont recall seeing it on a shelf in the autofactors as I have been having a mooch on a Sunday, but then again I never looked. TIA
 
Aluminuim anti seize spray made by D&K Supplies is on my cans.

Did you want me to sell you one?
 
You're thinking too hard.Just leave it, if another gets stuck just call the AA out again haha! :devil:
 
The snippet from Mitsubishi is true - for those (commercial?) vehicles covered by that bulletin. It's not necessarily true for any other vehicle.

It is technically true that lubrication does reduce scatter in axial tension values - but, as pointed out by Rory, this is no use to you at all if grease, oil, or whatever is not specified by the manufacturer when they determine the torque you must apply. The bolts may be more consistently tensioned with some lubrication, but, they'll be consistently at the WRONG tension!

The information provided by Roger Jones is much more applicable to our cars - possibly there is newer guidance on WIS.

Greasing the face between the hub and the wheel is also really bad news. This face acts as a clutch, and is how all the drive and brake torque *should* be transmitted between the wheel and hub. If you grease this face, the "clutch" can slip which places the bolts under a bending loading they were not designed for. This slip is more likely under hard driving conditions.


People tend to get away with this ad-hoc wheel mounting procedure on cars because manufacturers design in a lot of redundancy for this kind of amateur abuse rather than it being in any way best practice.
 
My point is the "Chinese Whispers" that have led to this mixed opinion on the matter.
The Mitsibishi document was merely used to highlight the thinking behind such a seemingly simple operation, clearly the similarities are there between trucks and cars.
I used to use copper grease but now I don't I simply hadn't thought it through and had probably picked the idea up from someone else.
My current stance is that lubricating the mating surfaces of the bolt/nut and wheel is something I will not do, but I will lubricate with high temperature paste (ceramic stuff for the pads) the threads and the central wheel to hub mating surfaces.
Until Ross Brawn drops in and tells me different I will carry on.
 
Last edited:
>>My point is the "Chinese Whispers" that have led to this mixed opinion on the matter.

Yes, I agree - it's shocking just how many aspects of vehicle maintenance are so poorly controlled. The manufacturers are usually pretty clear, it's just that every garage contains mechanics who think they know better, and think they can just make it up as they go along.


>>Until Ross Brawn drops in and tells me different I will carry on.

Why? Do you run one of the cars he designed? No? Didn't think so!

If you run through the calculations of how much torque the friction face between the wheel and hub can carry, you'll soon see that it can easily slip under heavy braking, which is an undesirable situation.

(No, I'm not Ross Brawn, but I've designed and rectified the faulty design of enough safety critical bolted joints to be able to talk about the subject!)
 
Blimey I didn't preach, I merely highlighted the contradictions expressed on here,
I have always greased liberally and now I have changed (albeit slightly).
The Mitsubishi document just seemed to make sense to me, they have some world class engineers.
I suppose it stems from struggling to remove wheels at the side of the road.
The Ross Brawn quip is due to his new Mercedes F1 Role where I freely admit I probably wouldn't make tea boy.
I suppose his TWR days may have led to some road car influences but no I don't drive one (and never have)
 
Sorry if my reply was a little blunt.

>>The Mitsubishi document just seemed to make sense to me, they have some world class engineers.

Yes - the Mitsubishi document is fine - for those Mitsubishis only.

Roger Jones has posted the relevant info for Mercedes cars higher up the thread.

I know there's a difference in the traditions and history of the different types of vehicle maintenance, but, would you be happy on the runway in a Boeing to find the mechanic who had just fitted the wheels had followed an Airbus procedure? I fiond it really strange that one of the most safety critical fasteners on the car is being approached with such a laissez faire attitude - this is on a forum where people agonise over the choice of polish and cleaning cloth!

Wheel bolt failure tends not to be such a big issue on cars, as the safety margins in the design are usually large enough to cover bodging, but, commercial vehicle wheel security, and the confusion caused by lube / no lube advocates continues to cause serious accidents.

Have a nosy on the ground on the run up to fast roundabout junctions when you're next in a traffic jam - you won't have to wait long before you see a failed heavy vehicle stud and nut rusting in the verge.

>>I suppose it stems from struggling to remove wheels at the side of the road.

Yes, it is problematic. However, if the wheels are removed and cleaned at reasonable intervals, especially after any wading, it shouldn't cause much difficulty.
 
So...the answer is clean your nuts and bolts and mating surfaces and torque to the recommended values without grease or oil.
 
Ive been a truck mech for over 20 years and can tell you this, if i could get my hands on the people who fitted the wheels i struggle with daily because they didnt lube the studs they would be in big trouble:devil:.

I had one last week that i had to heat the wheel nuts with the oxy torch as the 1" air gun wouldnt touch them, all because fitted up dry.

The official line with trucks is a small amount of engine oil on the stud and a small amount of engine oil between the nut and built in washer, then i nip them up with a 3/4 air gun and finish them off with the 3/4 torque wrench:thumb:

Problem with trucks is we are still using the same size and number of wheel nuts for ever and the weights have gone from 32 to 44 ton in the time i have been doing this job.

On all the cars i have ever owned its copper grease on the hub face and either some oil or grease on the wheelbolts and i have never ever had any problem.

If wheel face or hub corroded they should be cleaned up with emery or a wire brush.

I should add i give my car some stick now and then and ive never had any bother with hub/wheel slip, i wonder if 210 e55 350bhp has same size bolts as e200 150ishbhp bet it has!



Lynall
 
Last edited:
Wheel bolt failure tends not to be such a big issue on cars, as the safety margins in the design are usually large enough to cover bodging, but, commercial vehicle wheel security, and the confusion caused by lube / no lube advocates continues to cause serious accidents.

Have a nosy on the ground on the run up to fast roundabout junctions when you're next in a traffic jam - you won't have to wait long before you see a failed heavy vehicle stud and nut rusting in the verge.


I think thats just scare mongering as i cant remember the last time i saw or heard of a wheel loss incident on a commercial vehicle.
In my job i certainly come across a few odd loose nuts not falling off loose but not torqued coreectly, which can almost be put in the laps of either tyre fitters but mainly the drivers not checking the nuts daily!



Lynall
 
Last edited:
Had a nightmare with his last year, 2am frozen to the bone, no torch and wheel completely fused to the hub.

Please be very careful if you boot it repeatedly, we nearly had a disaster with the jack
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom