£111. Are younger People Worth More?

[MikeInWimbledon]

I was passed by one of these while walking in the centre of Milton Keynes early in the morning a few weeks ago.
Rider had a 'proper' crash helmet and protective clothing.
All well and good for the rider - but the speed he was travelling at exposed pedestrians to serious risk of injury IMO.
Something needs to be done.

For sure. We've maybe agreed that it's not the device.
And your prescription is?

Paris have geofenced part of the City so "branded / regulated" scooters can't be ridden in certain parts and can only do something like 6kph in others.
So, what do the French do? They're switching to illegal private scooters, which are used all over the rest of France.

I suspect that we need to age limit and speed restrict (10 mph?). But is that enough and who will enforce & ticket those who break the law? And who will chase those who don't pay the fines?

 

[Petrol Pete]

I have yet to see anyone who resembles a 'sensible' adult riding one of these illegal scooters , thankfully 'round my way E-scooters are still quite a rarity but almost every single one seems to be piloted by a dim looking youth normally clad entirely in black , I saw one the other night dressed head to toe in camouflage clothing .

By all means experiment and gather data on their use as a future inner city form of transport (not much good if the people who run those cities transport system bans them-rightly- on safety grounds from buses and tube trains ) but I digress.

But (unregulated) they have no place on our pavements and roads.

 

[m80]

I suggest the introduction of the hire schemes for these things has seriously hampered the ability to police their use.

So we are let down by gov't's (national and local) making their availability so attractive way before they have considered where their increased usage might end up.

As an aside i believe we have been let down by the massive take up of LED headlights also.

But there are controls on things the public here might see as desirable, and where other countries have far less controls, guns spring to mind.
The illegal ownership is, imo, low. They will be there, but it isn't fashionable to let others become aware in normal society.

It seems as though society will just end up turning a blind eye to these things as they will soon be whizzing past with increased regularity.
Certainly £111 is no deterrent to misusing them.

 

[st13phil]

For sure. We've maybe agreed that it's not the device.
And your prescription is?

A valid question. Here are a few suggestions:

1. Driver licencing scheme, with a starting age of 14 years, subject to demonstrated competence to operate machine
2. Compulsory registration of machine and display of a licence plate
3. Compulsory 3rd-party liability insurance (suggest incorporated into cost of licence plate)
4. Compulsory front and rear lighting (with no "only used in daylight" exemption)
5. Machine speed limited to (say) 12mph for 14-16yo, and (say) 20mph for older drivers
6. Strict ban on the sale of non-compliant machines, including meaningful action against sellers of same
7. Active enforcement against use of existing non-compliant machines / unlicensed use
8. Driving only in cycle lane if present
9. Speed limited to 6mph if sharing pedestrian space (e.g. pavements or shared pavement / cycle lane)
10. No use on any highway with speed limit >30mph
11. Suggested sanctions (non-exhaustive list):
    1. Action against driver (always) ranging from fine to suspension of licence depending on severity of infraction
    2. Forfeiture & destruction of the machine if non-compliant for first offence
    3. Forfeiture & destruction of machine if used by under-age or unlicensed driver for first offence

 

[Gollom]

Privately owned ones are....council owned ones that your can hire, like the ones in Southsea are OK....strangely!

I understand the council ones cannot be modified. However, it seems it's not difficult to *tweak" some of the private ones beyond 40mph?

 

[190]

Pavement: noun
a raised paved or asphalted path for pedestrians at the side of a road.

I see the need for low cost city transport but but an appropriate infrastructure needs to be provided. I'm clear on one thing; Pavements are for pedestrians and no powered devices should be permitted to use them except mobility scooters. If electric scooters were permitted to use pavements, then so would cyclists and the numbers would grow to the point they would dominate until there was no space left for pedestrians. To mix the two will inevitably result in more deaths of pedestrians and riders. There is already a case of a pedestrian going to prison for manslaughter after forcing an illegal cyclist off the pavement and onto the road.

Pedestrian Auriol Grey jailed over Huntingdon cyclist death

It's my understanding that in the official city trials, scooter are not permitted to use the pavement and for good reasons. I wouldn't have them on the road either where they mixed with anything faster than 20mph traffic. Cycle lanes seem the only sensible and safe space for them so our cites and urban areas need universal cycle lanes segregated as far as possible from both pedestrians and normal vehicle traffic.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

A valid question. Here are a few suggestions:

1. Driver licencing scheme, with a starting age of 14 years, subject to demonstrated competence to operate machine
2. Compulsory registration of machine and display of a licence plate
3. Compulsory 3rd-party liability insurance (suggest incorporated into cost of licence plate)
4. Compulsory front and rear lighting (with no "only used in daylight" exemption)
5. Machine speed limited to (say) 12mph for 14-16yo, and (say) 20mph for older drivers
6. Strict ban on the sale of non-compliant machines, including meaningful action against sellers of same
7. Active enforcement against use of existing non-compliant machines / unlicensed use
8. Driving only in cycle lane if present
9. Speed limited to 6mph if sharing pedestrian space (e.g. pavements or shared pavement / cycle lane)
10. No use on any highway with speed limit >30mph
11. Suggested sanctions (non-exhaustive list):
    1. Action against driver (always) ranging from fine to suspension of licence depending on severity of infraction
    2. Forfeiture & destruction of the machine if non-compliant for first offence
    3. Forfeiture & destruction of machine if used by under-age or unlicensed driver for first offence

Not a cat's chance in hell of getting that legislation through, nor of Police being able to enforce it.

Think of the existing failure to implement and enforce controls on bicycles and motorcycles.

Still, you have demonstrated why the Government and Police are deliberately sitting on their hands while looking in the other direction.

 

[st13phil]

Think of the existing failure to implement and enforce controls on bicycles and motorcycles.

I'm not aware of a particular failure to implement and enforce existing controls on motorcycles, or at least no greater failure than exists for cars.

Bicycles are a different matter...

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I'm not aware of a particular failure to implement and enforce existing controls on motorcycles, or at least no greater failure than exists for cars.
Bicycles are a different matter...

Motorcycle delivery services are the best examples of motorcyclists not confirming to speed limits or rules of the road. From 20mph to undertaking, overtaking, and driving the wrong way down roads and pavements.

Bicycles and e-bikes are a huge challenge to the idea of forcing scooters onto bike lines and into restricted speed limits.

And in both cases the police simply aren't interested in enforcing anything. It's not how they're told to manage their time.

Any legislation would just be more virtue signalling.

 

[st13phil]

the police simply aren't interested in enforcing anything

Perhaps they should be?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Perhaps they should be?

Why would they when young drivers, aged 17-24, kill or seriously injure 4,500 people a year ?
That includes 250 fatalities.

Given that these youngsters barely drive any distance, aren't they more of a priority?

 

[ALFAitalia]

Over 70s figures are not far different.......

 

[190]

Over 70s figures are not far different.......

Must be a few of us here in that age group and I'll be joining them relatively soon.

I was interested enough in what you said, to know if I'm going to be a risk to life and limb, so I went to the Government website to see if it's true. And it is, but only for drivers in the 86+ group.

Here's two graphs that a first sight seem to give conflicting information. The absolute number of accidents involving older drivers is very low and in fact many orders of magnitude lower than young drivers. However that's a reflection of low miles driven by older drivers. The 2nd graph shows that for miles driven, older drivers become a greater risk from the 71-75 age group onwards. But not the same risk as young drivers until they are 86+. Oldies are on average, relatively safe right up to 85.

There is some information about fatalities involving older drivers but the graphs seemed to me much less clear.

Reported road casualties Great Britain: older drivers factsheet 2020

 

[st13phil]

Given that these youngsters barely drive any distance, aren't they more of a priority?

Arguments over priorities for policing are endless (and often circular), but simply shrugging and saying there’s not the resource to do things isn’t the answer.

For example, if the other agencies who should be dealing with the mental health issues that the police end up spending hours every shift dealing with, the police would have more time to deal with law enforcement.

Somewhere along the line, things have to be done differently.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Arguments over priorities for policing are endless (and often circular), but simply shrugging and saying there’s not the resource to do things isn’t the answer.

For example, if the other agencies who should be dealing with the mental health issues that the police end up spending hours every shift dealing with, the police would have more time to deal with law enforcement.

Somewhere along the line, things have to be done differently.

Good point. With the complexity of mental health issues distracting the police, why would they police a scooter speed limit?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Over 70s figures are not far different.......

Reinforcing 190’s response, the two groups aren’t comparable.

Not only are the KSI figures much higher for the age group 17-24

But also the number of people aged 17-24 is much lower than the age group of 70-90…

As are the number of miles actually driven by those 17-24 year olds, most who are still locked up in full time education and work unlike those party people in the group 70-90….

 

[Wolfie1]

My wife and i have good quality off road escooters and we love putting a picnic in a rucksack and go out exploring for the day, we usually base where we go in the caravan so we can have places to ride them such as through nature reserves, forests, etc they are just so much fun but of course you have to be sensible whilst on them and not go whizzing past folks

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

My wife and i have good quality off road escooters and we love putting a picnic in a rucksack and go out exploring for the day, we usually base where we go in the caravan so we can have places to ride them such as through nature reserves, forests, etc they are just so much fun but of course you have to be sensible whilst on them and not go whizzing past folks

While the rest aren't looking, what brand do you use or recommend?

I was an early adopter of e-bikes (Haibike etc) for bridleway work but gave up because of their weight, switching back to traditional aluminium hybrids. I'd be interested to see a recommendation for life off-road / "beyond the city bike path"

 

[StMarks]

It seems to me that perhaps there is also another aspect to these e-scooters.?
Last week I dropped off Mrs StM at the City Hospital for an appointment. On the way back the traffic was at rush-hour crawling pace, allowing me to observe the pedestrians flowing past the semi-static traffic.
Whilst I was consoling myself at the lack of fit young nurses apparent amongst the crowds, my attention was caught by a "mobility scooter" travelling in the opposite direction to the prevailing flow. It was a sight to behold, but not in a good way. The young lady steering it looked almost impossible, as though she belonged on some American reality programme. Her folds of body mass all but obscured the entire vehicle.
As I pondered the problem of how I was ever going to un-see this vision, I noticed that following in her wake was a lad I would estimate at maybe 7-9 yo apparently floating behind her. As the duo approached I realised the reason for the boy's apparent motionless movement. He was standing on one of those "Hoverboard" things, skillfully manoeuvring it whilst simultaneously drinking a Macdonalds Milkshake from his left hand through a straw AND seemingly entirely focussed on the phone in his right hand.!
Karma saw to it that that the episode ended, for as I was transfixed on my rear-view mirror enthralled at his deft control & apparently navigating using only peripheral vision, I nearly rear-ended the car crawling along in front of me.

Have you all seen the (excellent underrated observant satirical imho) animated film: WALL-E. ?

​

 

[Petrol Pete]

My wife and i have good quality off road escooters and we love putting a picnic in a rucksack and go out exploring for the day, we usually base where we go in the caravan so we can have places to ride them such as through nature reserves, forests, etc they are just so much fun but of course you have to be sensible whilst on them and not go whizzing past folks

No problem with that at all , as long as you are not on the public highway/footpaths/BOAT/bridleway/RUPP and with permission from the land owner your actions are perfectly legal.