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4 cylinder diesel Merc engine

kinaero

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Jul 25, 2011
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Rainy City
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E220CDI AMG SPORT Estate
Following from one of the threads where a member was concerned over the refinement of C220CDI engine.

The 4 cylinder diesel from Mercedes are not that bad, and is quite refined when you're inside the car, plenty of poke and power.

However when considered further back, and I probably will get flame for this, I think the French diesel engines has far more refinement than the equivalent Mercedes diesel, took a test drive a few months ago in Citroen DS5, extremely smooth and quite even when I gave it some wellies!! :thumb:
 
My wife's last car was a C220CDI (manual) and it was pretty unrefined, albeit relatively powerful. It also had a nasty habit of the injectors repeatedly failing & being replaced. The last time it was being repaired we had an E250CDI (auto) - the difference was like night and day. When I asked the service manager why one could be so bad, and the other so good when the engines are so similar he replied that the autobox helps smooth the engine out. [Of course we might have just had a 'bad' C220!]

I hate to say it on a Mercedes forum but the latest BMW 2.0d with the 8-speed autoboxes are sublime. I've not driven a French diesel!
 
Maybe Merc have got the message. The latest small engines in the new A Class are made by Renault

Only the manual A180 diesel, 1461cc. The 'auto' (7G-DCT) A180 diesel is the Merc 4 pot, 1796cc.

I know which I'd rather have ;)
 
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Maybe Merc have got the message. The latest small engines in the new A Class are made by Renault


Nope, a non Merc engine in a Merc means only one thing, it's a cheap engine to buy in. Nothing more imo.


P.s. Not knocking French engine design.
 
The 'auto' (7G-DCT) A180 diesel is the Merc 4 pot, 1796cc.

Maybe not for long.

Looks like the C-class will be getting the next generation 1.6 diesel from Renault/Nissan.
 
Nope, a non Merc engine in a Merc means only one thing, it's a cheap engine to buy in. Nothing more imo.


P.s. Not knocking French engine design.

Then again, what I should have added was, does anybody really care who supplies the engine etc...I doubt it. So, from Merc's view point it's a no brainer, all they have to do is just make sure there's a big star on the front and all is well!
 
Then again, what I should have added was, does anybody really care who supplies the engine etc...I doubt it. So, from Merc's view point it's a no brainer, all they have to do is just make sure there's a big star on the front and all is well!

Yes, it's hard to think of any real problems with this strategy, other than sentimental ones.

Mercedes are now very squarely a volume brand, and building down to a price, so value engineering is the top priority.
 
Yes, it's hard to think of any real problems with this strategy, other than sentimental ones.

Mercedes are now very squarely a volume brand, and building down to a price, so value engineering is the top priority.

Yeah, for sure.

But, I don't think sentimental issues will be the only problem. A B180 with a French/Jap engine (maybe even chassis soon too at some stage), one may as well buy the cheaper Nissan Quashqui or something of that ilk. If nothing more it really raises questions about buying the likes of the B-Class.
 
Yes, it's hard to think of any real problems with this strategy, other than sentimental ones.

The problem is over the longer term if they want to maintain premium.

MB get the advantage of being a premium brand over the likes of Ford, Renault, or Nissan. In the short term stuffing a Renault engine under the bonnet won't make a difference. Over the longer term people might start asking why they are paying a premium.

VW/Audi gain and lose from parts sharing. Audi can command a premium over VW to some extent. But BMW and MB still stand higher. (OTOH VAG probably save quite a bit on development and economy of scale by reusing their parts and platforms.) The more parts MB share the more risk they carry of losing their premium over the likes of Audi and even VAG. And the risk is that even if this is just the A and B class models that are tainted that the taint moves further up the product lines - the C will be sharing a Renault diesel which raises the rsik further.

Cars like the Mondeo are very good. If Ford stuffed the ZF 8 speed box in the Mondeo with a 2.0 litre engine then where do MB stand with say a Renault engine and the 7G+ box? Well it only takes a few influential journalists to start talking up the Mondeo (like they do with the Focus) and people will ask whether the C is worth the premium over a Ford such that within a few years MB are having to pedal very hard to fix the damage.
 
The problem is over the longer term if they want to maintain premium.

MB get the advantage of being a premium brand over the likes of Ford, Renault, or Nissan. In the short term stuffing a Renault engine under the bonnet won't make a difference. Over the longer term people might start asking why they are paying a premium.

VW/Audi gain and lose from parts sharing. Audi can command a premium over VW to some extent. But BMW and MB still stand higher. (OTOH VAG probably save quite a bit on development and economy of scale by reusing their parts and platforms.) The more parts MB share the more risk they carry of losing their premium over the likes of Audi and even VAG. And the risk is that even if this is just the A and B class models that are tainted that the taint moves further up the product lines - the C will be sharing a Renault diesel which raises the rsik further.

Cars like the Mondeo are very good. If Ford stuffed the ZF 8 speed box in the Mondeo with a 2.0 litre engine then where do MB stand with say a Renault engine and the 7G+ box? Well it only takes a few influential journalists to start talking up the Mondeo (like they do with the Focus) and people will ask whether the C is worth the premium over a Ford such that within a few years MB are having to pedal very hard to fix the damage.


Can't fault your logic, but I think Mercedes have already set their path with value engineering of their cheaper models, and there is bound to be a gradual shift downwards in brand perception. (I'm a loyal and enthusiastic supporter of the brand by the way, and likely will continue to be).

However, I think all others (premium brands) will have to follow a similar path. The reason why I quote 'sentiment' is to do with what would be considered a core and branded component. No one expects Mercedes to make the batteries or tyres themselves, so why the engine? Maybe so in the old days, or in AMG versions, but now as we head towards, electric drives, hybrids, etc. how critical is the brand of the power plant itself?

As a challenge to this, we have of course the issue of premium in-car hifi, and the need to use hifi brand names to sell an £800 upgrade. Maybe this will go the same way with power plants, and only the 'Engineered by AMG Sport' models will have a unit that will carry an MB brand, as in effect be an option.

We must also consider the globalisation of production, and the same factory in China, if not already, will be producing Mercedes brand engines on the same line as one's for Dacia maybe. Don't foget the Crossfire was built side by side with the SLK.

There is a natuaral tendency to assume a 'Renault' sources engine in less premium or durable than one from Mercedes. I'm not sure a certain Mr Vettel would agree :)
 
No one expects Mercedes to make the batteries or tyres themselves, so why the engine?

Is the engine not the heart of a car...I think so, never mind it being one of the most costly parts too. I want hear, read that Merc, BMW, Honda, whoever has spent zillions on engine design and won accolades to for it.

Personally, I'd never buy a Merc or BM with a non MB or BM engine, rightly or wrongly I'd feel cheated. As I alluded in one post already I reckon the majority won't care so punters like me are not important in the great scheme of Merc's profit planning.
 
Hmmm...Mercedes with the Renault engine?? It just didn't sound right, kind of lower its perceived quality image(not knocking French engine design) I believed the TDV6 in the Land rover cars are French design, anyone who has been inside a Discovery would agree its engine refinement is superb.

Funnily enough the new Q50 from Infiniti are using Mercedes own 2.1 diesel engine, while Mercedes buying in engines from the French, it makes my mind boggles :dk:

Mercedes should really have the know how on designing great diesel engines, just look how many commercial trucks and lorries you see on the road!!
 
The French have been making small diesel engines for years and know what they are doing, Where as Mercedes are good at making larger diesel engines ( to a degree ) but rubbish at making 4 pot diesels, the 651 engine is cr4p with problem after problem :fail

 
Firstly, let me say i am not a fan of French cars in general (there are of course some exceptions)
It seems the French started getting the diesel car right before others, the old 505 etc are still the most reliable and sought after bush taxi in the northern half of Africa.

The Land Rover TDV6 is, as mentioned by kinaero of french dna. They have also supplied diesel technology to other manufacturers such as Ford and Nissan.

I've owned three diesel mercedes, two of which were hugely unreliable.
My very old horse/cattle lorry had the OM355 engine, 12 litres of ultra reliable diesel torque (if not much power) and 5mpg. Truly intergalactic mileage on the clock and never missed a beat.
 
I have a 'new' B Class (W246), and I'm very happy with it. It has a proper MB engine. Can be a bit clattery when cold, but nothing too bad for a diseasel.

Before that I had a new Renault Scenic. It was quite horrible, broke 4 times in the 18 months I had it. Good satnav though and the Nissan engine was great, and sounded reliable.

The thing that made me change, and I went through quite a lot of research over about 6 months, was the quality. The MB seems and feels solid, it does not have any bits that are waiting to fall off. It doesn't rattle (mostly) unlike the last piece of excrement. It just behaves and works like a 'real' motor car, not something turned out of plastic.
Just for that I happily paid a third as much again for the MB compared to the Renault.

Before the horrible renault I had a Mk1 C-Max, and that was really quite good, for a ford! Didn't like what they did with the more recent marks though, all bling and ******.

P.
 
I have a 'new' B Class (W246), and I'm very happy with it. It has a proper MB engine. Can be a bit clattery when cold, but nothing too bad for a diseasel.

Before that I had a new Renault Scenic. It was quite horrible, broke 4 times in the 18 months I had it. Good satnav though and the Nissan engine was great, and sounded reliable.


P.
I thought Nissan uses Renault diesel engines? :confused:
 
When the old 2.5 Nissan Navara started frequently ejecting con rods through blocks a lot of people said it was a problem with some Renault parts failing. But who knows?
 
Is it a Renault engine straight off the shelf, so to speak, or have Merc made any alterations?

ISTR, but excuse my rusty memory, when SAAB started using diesel engines, they didn't like the idea of a cambelt on the GM engine they were due to use, so had them altered to use a chain, which in turn needed lubrication mods, etc.

SWMBO has an new A180 auto (merc engine) on order. I thought that the engine noise was muted better inside the car than my S211 220CDi!

Having owned 4 Mercs to date, the only engine problems we've ever had was with glow plugs and starting problems on the 3L V6 diesel.
 
Might worth reminding everybody that even at the Mercedes engines a lot of the electronics (not the tuning and program) are actually not Mercedes. In a modern car you will have the usual suspects supplying the brakes and the ABS/ASR/DC etc someone else supplying the gearbox technology and/or power steering, one more for the tyres a separate supplier does the alloys , lights, ECU, seats , different for the stereo/onboard computer and navigation

All of those are int he small print and are not easily identifiable. Of course the engine is part of the core of the car but is not going to be long before (like the computer and mobile telephone industry) is not about the components but the package. If we look at the apple products they are using mostly commodity commodity components packages and glued together through a good user interface that are sold at a premium. That is the value of the brand i.e. how much someone is willing to pay on top of something else to have the badge

Theo
 

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