4 cylinder diesel Merc engine

[John Jones Jr]

Nothing new there, Bosch have been a supplier to Merc from day dot. There's a big difference supplying a fuel pump or a complete ABS system than buying in a complete engine. Engines have character be it noise, bhp, torque, a sweet spot, a rev limit etc, ABS units or the like would be devoid of character - can't fit a nicer exhaust system to an ECU!

Worth remembering too when using a mobile phone as comparison to make your point, you can't drive a phone.

 

[theogeor]

Nothing new there, Bosch have been a supplier to Merc from day dot. There's a big difference supplying a fuel pump or a complete ABS system than buying in a complete engine. Engines have character be it noise, bhp, torque, a sweet spot, a rev limit etc, ABS units or the like would be devoid of character - can't fit a nicer exhaust system to an ECU!

Worth remembering too when using a mobile phone as comparison to make your point, you can't drive a phone.

The big question which is why I gave the mobile phone example is how many people care about the brand and the package rather than the content of it. Yes you are right bosh has been a supplier for years and years but we see more and more examples like that. And how many people know much about engines.. The majority of the people I bet they would not know anything about it. If Mercedes is confident that they will have no major problems that will affect its reputation then I am sure most people will not be any wiser. And from what I have seen the engine still says Mercedes on it (at least the visible part) and there is no big Renault batch on it

By no means I agree with it but I am trying to explain it from Marketing and Brand point of view and identify the associated risks if you do something like that which I am sure the Mercedes management team has done as well .

Theo

 

[John Jones Jr]

@theo,

I'm actually in general agreement with you, please refer to post #7.

I understand why you used a mobile, iPad etc as a comparison BUT, I'm speaking as a petrol head thus my dismay that there will a few if not several Merc's with non Merc engines in them over the coming years.

Now, Merc's logic is hard to fault from a profit perspective and it's their prerogative but I for one wouldn't give a C-Class (in my case) with a non Merc engine a second look just on principle alone.

 

[gIzzE]

I don't understand how folks on here can be worried about refinement and then buy a 4 cyl diesel anyway, it ruins the refinement of the car full stop.

Guy round the corner has gone from an early S204 C220cdi to a 2010 C180 petrol and he loves the petrol.
He said he was averaging 39mpg in the diesel, all short trips, and is now at 36mpg in the 180 petrol.

When I was doing 40k miles a year I worried about economy, now I am only doing around 18k miles a year it doesn't matter.

When you work out what motoring costs you with fuel, tax, insurance, servicing, tyres etc. and the big one...depreciation the difference between diesel and petrol becomes laughable.


The Merc diesel 4cyl cars are rough as nails, drive an Audi (140bhp not 170bhp) and see how much smoother that is.
The BMW 2.0 diesel is smoother as well, but not smooth. And again loads of people buy the diesel when they would be far better off in the petrol.

Who cares who makes the engine, I would rather be in a refined car with an engine made by someone else than a bag of nails made by Mercedes. A car is the sum of its parts.

 

[John Jones Jr]

Who cares who makes the engine, I would rather be in a refined car with an engine made by someone else than a bag of nails made by Mercedes. A car is the sum of its parts.

I do, is that not obvious and I doubt very much I'm on my own.

So, what you really saying is, you would buy a Merc diesel with a non Merc engine, if the engine is better than Merc's own unit? Fair enough and that's exactly what Merc want.

Really though what you should be asking/saying is way can't Merc design & manufacture a top notch four pot diesel. Is it they couldn't be bothered, unwilling to spend the money on R&D or are they simply not capably?

Whatever, the reason it's not good enough imo coming from a prestigious brand that's considered birth place of diesel powered cars no less.

 

[grober]

Currently,[this article is dated early 2012 ] Mercedes employs four separate platforms for its global lineup of cars[ not including the G Class SUV manufactured in Austria by Magna Steyr.] Those four platforms consist of a front-wheel drive design, a rear-wheel drive design, an all-wheel drive design and a sports car-specific design.
In future, Mercedes will only use two platforms, explained Mercedes production chief Wolfgang Bernhard . These will be the new Front Wheel Architecture (MFA), used for small cars and featured already in the third-generation A Class and B Class models CLA and GLA , as well as a flexible Mercedes Rear Wheel Architecture (MRA) that will cover the rest of Mercedes future lineup. This has already been changed?? with the all aluminium chassis'd SL so may be questionable?

Mercedes To Halve Its Number Of Platforms By 2015

Renault was also involved in the development of the MFA platform as well as providing some of the engines. Mercedes turned to them because they evidently couldn't make small cars economically enough. I assume this refers to the actual production line manufacturing process rather than the components used .

Not so much how do you build a car but maybe more how do you build a production line to make em.

 

[gIzzE]

So, what you really saying is, you would buy a Merc diesel with a non Merc engine, if the engine is better than Merc's own unit? Fair enough and that's exactly what Merc want.

Really though what you should be asking/saying is way can't Merc design & manufacture a top notch four pot diesel. Is it they couldn't be bothered, unwilling to spend the money on R&D or are they simply not capably?

I don't really see cars like that, I see cars as a complete package.

The 150bhp BMW 2 litre M74 engine was a peach, however, just because Rover used it in their Rover 75 doesn't mean I enjoyed the Rover 75.
If Rover had made that engine I would however have enjoyed the E46 3 Series just as much.

We are living in times where manufacturers will share major components, I can't see it matters. I don't moan that most of the stuff in my Merc engine bay is stamped Bosch, or the electronics are made by Becker, it is how the manufacturer puts these all together that matters, it is the end result.
If we want cars like Mercs at these silly cheap prices there is a compromise.

Give 10 different marques the same parts to build a car and you would end up with 10 very different cars.

 

[John Jones Jr]

complete package.

Maybe, Rolex or the likes should take note and just slap in a cheap but very good mechanism (maybe from France, Japan or China) on their cheaper models and charge the same and still market it as a prestige product - why not, it's a complete package.

Not the perfect analogy but I think it's somewhat fitting.

 

[gIzzE]

Maybe, Rolex or the likes should take note and just slap in a cheap but very good mechanism (maybe from France, Japan or China) on their cheaper models and charge the same and still market it as a prestige product - why not, it's a complete package.

Not the perfect analogy but I think it's somewhat fitting.

But you are not paying the Mercedes premium any more, that is the point.

20 years ago when everything in an E Class was made by Mercedes they were far more expensive.
My old man paid £36k for his E320 W124 back in '94, our 2 bed terrace in the right part of Norwich was the same price (the other side of town they were £24k). Those same houses are now £180,000 and £150,000.
If Mercs were still the same price as those houses would you be driving one?

We want exclusivity but we never want to pay for it.

 

[John Jones Jr]

No, premium you say...I'd consider 2.5-4.5k difference a premium.

Base model prices as of July 2013.

A-Class 19,000/ Ford Focus 16,500/Renault Megan 15,700/VW Golf 15,850

B-Class 21,200/Nissan Qashqai 16,500/Renault Scenic 16,600/Ford C-Max 17,700

C-Class 25,200/Ford Mondeo 20,800/Citroen C5 19,900/VW Passat 19,300

 

[gIzzE]

Buy a Renault then.

 

[gIzzE]

In 1994 the closest from Ford was probably this...

Ford Granada Hatchback 2.8I Ghia 5Dr Auto 1985 - 1994 Petrol Automatic £12,706

Now, that is what I call a premium for the Merc.



If you can't see why the Mercedes has a premium over the Renault, then just buy the Renault?

If you think the Renault engine is better than the Merc engine and that is the most important thing for you, again buy the Reanult?

I simply don't get your argument to be honest?

 

[John Jones Jr]

I simply don't get your argument to be honest?

For a man that does understand my straight forward points you sure have posted a hell of a lot...

 

[gIzzE]

....my straight forward points...

But that is it, I don't think you're realistic with your expectations.
I simply disagree with you.

 

[John Jones Jr]

But that is it, I don't think you're realistic with your expectations.
I simply disagree with you.

I expect a Merc to have a Merc engine, yes my expectations are bordering on the ridiculous...

 

[Dryce]

If you can't see why the Mercedes has a premium over the Renault, then just buy the Renault?

I think that is exactly the point - if enough people come to that conclusion then that diminishing premium that MB have been charging will get squeezed further.

Where does that ultimately leave MB? Well in the worst case basicly like an army that has left its fortified bastion up on the hill to scrap it out on the soggy field below on their opponent's terms.

 

[gIzzE]

Mercedes are doing what they need to do to stay competitive and stay in business.
They are all doing it, not just Mercedes, the consumer will not swallow the development costs of a manufacturer doing it all themselves these days.

Bentley tried for a long time, as did Rolls Royce, they kept the prices high and the units low, but even at those prices they couldn't survive.
Lamborghini shares engines with an Audi.

It's very difficult for these companies not to share tech between models these days, development just costs so much money.

 

[gIzzE]

The day a Mercedes is a Renault Laguna with a star on the grille is the day we start to panic.

 

[John Jones Jr]

^^^ All just good old rhetoric.

And to imply that M-B could go out of business or wouldn't be competitive simply because they didn't buy in cheap engines rather than making them in house is beyond laughable it's actually hogwash! It's all about maximising profits to 10th degree rather than making profits for a sustainable & prosperous business.

 

[gIzzE]

Why did BMW and Mercedes discuss making engines together then, they both said the cost of development was getting out of hand, and sharing engines could only strengthen both brands. With the VW group sharing platforms across multiple brands it makes it harder for brands with a single marque to keep a handle on costs.

BMW and Merc to share engines? | Autocar


You can buy an E220cdi with leather, led lights, navigation, media, internet and heated seats for £32,600 new.
I would bet my house that the profit margin on that is a much smaller percentage than it was on a 190E a few years back.

What is wrong with them making as much profit as possible?
I don't get that, that is such a British trait. Hate any company that makes a decent profit!!
When business' make profit it allows them to grow and push the boundaries, it allows them to take risks, Mercedes was a company that took risks, still is, can't see why putting in an engine from Renault or BMW into one of their cars would change any of that.