Advice regarding driving to France and Switzerland

[markjay]

....if you regularly need to cover very long distances - and wish/need to drive an EV - then the Tesla is the ideal choice, and hence why they’re so popular, and why some rack up serious mileages in them.

The very clever Mr Musk.

 

[BTB 500]

You’re thinking of it as an ICE owner though. There are plenty of other high speed chargers, however if you regularly need to cover very long distances - and wish/need to drive an EV - then the Tesla is the ideal choice, and hence why they’re so popular, and why some rack up serious mileages in them.

It's other people (EV owners, and the government) who have commented on a lack of high speed chargers in the UK. With just 780 or so versus 8,500 fuel forecourts I can understand why that might be an issue, given that EVs need 'fuelling' more frequently when venturing further away from home.

I really have nothing against EVs (or Teslas) - they just don't fit my needs. We currently have the following:

• a van to carry 3-4 people, 10 dogs, camping equipment, etc. and tow a caravan longish distances
• a decent-sized estate car to carry 3-4 people, a cage for 2-3 Collies in the boot, or with the back seats seats down shift big/long items (furniture, grandfather clock, my large r/c aircraft, sheets of wood, fence posts, bulky things to the dump. etc.). EU6 for occasional trips to London etc.
• a 2+2 soft top for nice days

Oh, and a 4WD tractor with diff lock, differential braking, 4-in-1 front loader, rear PTO, and 3-point linkage

The only one that could conceivably be replaced by an EV would be #2, but there's simply no justification. That's our C300 estate ... based on the market value given on insurance renewal last week it's lost a mere 7% since we bought it in 2020 as a 1 year old MB demonstrator with 5k miles on the clock. It's a 'premium brand' car that still looks great, is excellent to drive, and should have many more years of life left in it (currently on just 35k miles). On a decent run it costs 14.6p per mile for fuel, with a range of 600 miles. Annual fuel cost is around £1800.

 

[BTB 500]

The very clever Mr Musk.

The Model 3 in particular seems to be an excellent car, although outsold by the more expensive Model Y (and two non-Teslas) in 2023:

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The only one that could conceivably be replaced by an EV would be #2, but there's simply no justification. That's our C300 estate ...

I really wouldn’t worry too much about there only being 780 high speed charging sites compared to 8,500 fuel forecourts then.

 

[markjay]

It's other people (EV owners, and the government) who have commented on a lack of high speed chargers in the UK. With just 780 or so versus 8,500 fuel forecourts I can understand why that might be an issue, given that EVs need 'fuelling' more frequently when venturing further away from home.

I really have nothing against EVs (or Teslas) - they just don't fit my needs. We currently have the following:

• a van to carry 3-4 people, 10 dogs, camping equipment, etc. and tow a caravan longish distances
• a decent-sized estate car to carry 3-4 people, a cage for 2-3 Collies in the boot, or with the back seats seats down shift big/long items (furniture, grandfather clock, my large r/c aircraft, sheets of wood, fence posts, bulky things to the dump. etc.). EU6 for occasional trips to London etc.
• a 2+2 soft top for nice days

Oh, and a 4WD tractor with diff lock, differential braking, 4-in-1 front loader, rear PTO, and 3-point linkage

The only one that could conceivably be replaced by an EV would be #2, but there's simply no justification. That's our C300 estate ... based on the market value given on insurance renewal last week it's lost a mere 7% since we bought it in 2020 as a 1 year old MB demonstrator with 5k miles on the clock. It's a 'premium brand' car that still looks great, is excellent to drive, and should have many more years of life left in it (currently on just 35k miles). On a decent run it costs 14.6p per mile for fuel, with a range of 600 miles. Annual fuel cost is around £1800.

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I don't think anyone is suggesting that people should simply dump their ICE cars an get EVs instead.

The expectation is that when the time comes to replace their current cars, they should consider an EV. Eventually, with the aid of legislation, some model of EV will be their only option.

The discussion here is more to do with the fact that some current ICE owners maintain that an EV will never work for them. To some extent, it is true that both the tech and the charging infrastructure need to continue and develop, but at the same time, some of the arguments against EV are simply not serious.

The idea that an EV won't work because the driver will miss teatime due to a charging stop is - to my mind - a good example, because the compromise required in this case is minimal.

 

[philnewmerc]

If you get out more - maybe drive 340 miles a day on British motorways - you'll find yourself surrounded by BEV's

In my experience this is correct on the M25 and the network of the SE.
But not the M6/M1 north of, say, Luton. (Unless I just don't notice them what with the majority going the EV-mandatory 65.)

I wonder if the reason so many people on here (including me tbh) are EV skeptical is that we've had about 30-40 years of cars only improving modestly and so driving a 10 or 20 year old ice car is not a big deal and if it's a MB luxo barge might even be better than a new one! But a 10 year old EV, given the rate of improvement in tech, is going to feel absolutely ancient like an old iPhone. And for enthusiasts used to enjoying perfectly useable old ice cars, this is somewhat depressing.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

But a 10 year old EV, given the rate of improvement in tech, is going to feel absolutely ancient like an old iPhone.

Maybe. Maybe not.

The only way in which I can see that there will be a difference will be in the range and charging rate, because exterior styling, interior, infotainment are not really any different to an ICE car.

Range and charging rate will continue to improve over time but that won’t be noticeable to the majority of people, most of the time. will charge the car when they’re not using it due to low mileage.

Smaller less expensive city cars might continue to have smaller batteries and slower charging rates to keep weight and cost down - 200 miles charged in day 2 hours is ample for most now and in future.

 

[Neiltodd]

Fully understood.

Roll forward 10 years or so, you're now driving an EV, would you do this journey with a charging stop, or would you now consider this journey as undoable, and you'll give it a miss?

If you answer the former, then my point is that some journeys will be less convenient in an EV, but still doable, and people will get used to it.

I agree with that, would still do the trip just would be less convenient.

 

[ALFAitalia]

I really wouldn’t worry too much about there only being 780 high speed charging sites compared to 8,500 fuel forecourts then.

But not that many can refuel their ICE car at home overnight....so the difference in charging points/fuel station numbers is not relevant.

 

[philnewmerc]

Maybe. Maybe not.

The only way in which I can see that there will be a difference will be in the range and charging rate, because exterior styling, interior, infotainment are not really any different to an ICE car.

Range and charging rate will continue to improve over time but that won’t be noticeable to the majority of people, most of the time. will charge the car when they’re not using it due to low mileage.

Smaller less expensive city cars might continue to have smaller batteries and slower charging rates to keep weight and cost down - 200 miles charged in day 2 hours is ample for most now and in future.

I agree to an extent.

An example: my 20 yr old CLS 55 feels, to me, perfectly modern in ice terms: airbags, fast, comfy, reasonable on fuel outside of the city, 25 mpg A road/motorway is comparable with modern high performance ice mpg (according to fuelly etc), only the prehistoric satnav really dates it. Will a 20 year old EQS AMG feel similar? Or will it be utterly outclassed in mi/kwh and range? I hope not as I'll be the sort of chump who'll be buying one

 

[markjay]

I agree to an extent.

An example: my 20 yr old CLS 55 feels, to me, perfectly modern in ice terms: airbags, fast, comfy, reasonable on fuel outside of the city, 25 mpg A road/motorway is comparable with modern high performance ice mpg (according to fuelly etc), only the prehistoric satnav really dates it. Will a 20 year old EQS AMG feel similar? Or will it be utterly outclassed in mi/kwh and range? I hope not as I'll be the sort of chump who'll be buying one

Good point. Is there a market now for early EVs? The Leaf was introduced in the UK in 2010, so not quite 20 years yet, but given the rapid progress of EV tech since then, the current situation with early Leaf EVs could be indicative of things to come.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

In my experience this is correct on the M25 and the network of the SE.
But not the M6/M1 north of, say, Luton. (Unless I just don't notice them what with the majority going the EV-mandatory 65.)

I wonder if the reason so many people on here (including me tbh) are EV skeptical is that we've had about 30-40 years of cars only improving modestly and so driving a 10 or 20 year old ice car is not a big deal and if it's a MB luxo barge might even be better than a new one! But a 10 year old EV, given the rate of improvement in tech, is going to feel absolutely ancient like an old iPhone. And for enthusiasts used to enjoying perfectly useable old ice cars, this is somewhat depressing.

I refer you to the photos I posted. How do you. Recognise EVs now that they look the same as ICE ?

Let’s be careful on numbers. Only one in 30 vehicles is an EV today. Don’t expect to see one in three

Look at the depreciation on a ten year old Mercedes E, S, or GLC. If there’s no difference between an old ICE vehicle and a new one, why do these ICE vehicles lose 80% of their value?

For someone running a ten ten year old vehicle that can be fuelled at a third of the cost of a diesel, the difference is going to be exciting. (Especially for folks to can charge their vehicles for free through work - formally, or “informally”).

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I agree to an extent.

An example: my 20 yr old CLS 55 feels, to me, perfectly modern in ice terms: airbags, fast, comfy, reasonable on fuel outside of the city, 25 mpg A road/motorway is comparable with modern high performance ice mpg (according to fuelly etc), only the prehistoric satnav really dates it. Will a 20 year old EQS AMG feel similar? Or will it be utterly outclassed in mi/kwh and range? I hope not as I'll be the sort of chump who'll be buying one

Your 20 year old has been totally outclassed in tech, fuel consumption, emissions, raw performance by this year’s equivalent. Does it matter? Not really because you don’t do big mileage, don’t do 3,000 miles a week, like so many on here.

In real world use it’s fine. Even if it’s not 700bhp and doesn’t drop in value by 50% in the first three years after it leaves the showroom

 

[philnewmerc]

I refer you to the photos I posted. How do you. Recognise EVs now that they look the same as ICE ?

Let’s be careful on numbers. Only one in 30 vehicles is an EV today. Don’t expect to see one in three

Look at the depreciation on a ten year old Mercedes E, S, or GLC. If there’s no difference between an old ICE vehicle and a new one, why do these ICE vehicles lose 80% of their value?

For someone running a ten ten year old vehicle that can be fuelled at a third of the cost of a diesel, the difference is going to be exciting. (Especially for folks to can charge their vehicles for free through work - formally, or “informally”).

True, but I am a car nerd so tend to notice (but maybe not as modern MGs and Korean stuff I kind of have an internal high pass filter regarding that stuff).

Well maybe, I suppose I only really notice Teslas and MB EVs as they're the ones I can see the point in (as a private buyer).

They loose huge amounts primarily because most people like new things, even though 'new' and 'better' are not the same. Of course new can mean better, but only better is better, and sometimes old is better, but not as often as new is better, but generally, for someone with some aptitude, an old better car is possible to find.

True, but I can imagine that as soon as EVs are say 1/3-1/2 of the car population their running costs are going to approach ice as taxes rise and energy bills go up. Plus of course half the population cannot charge for pennies overnight.

80% depreciated 7 year old EQS AMG.... hmmmmmm nice

 

[philnewmerc]

Your 20 year old has been totally outclassed in tech, fuel consumption, emissions, raw performance by this year’s equivalent. Does it matter? Not really because you don’t do big mileage, don’t do 3,000 miles a week, like so many on here.

In real world use it’s fine. Even if it’s not 700bhp

I disagree. But even if true, as you say, then no, I suppose it doesn't matter as it is more than enough for me.

But is it true? Let's see........

Tech: What is better? Reliability? Satnav? Small mpg improvement? Errmm... there's not much that I personally value in new car tech that is worth having. Mine's got fuel injection and airbags and ABS and heated seats so that's pretty much me covered lol.

Emissions: Not interested. Or rather I am but in my total emissions not just one aspect of my technological life - my total carbon footprint is smaller than average.

Fuel consumption: Well compared to the most recent ICE AMG equivalent E class according to Honest John's real mpg website the E53 and E43 are around 24 mpg. My running average is 21 mpg. Yes important if I was doing 30k miles a year but not doing 6 or 7k.

Performance: E53 has 0-62 in 4.5 seconds. The CLS55 0-62 is 4.7 seconds. But the E53 is heavier and less powerful with much less torque. It achieves this performance by using 285 gear changes (slight exaggeration). In the real world on an A road sat at 50 mph, the CLS55 will overtake far more stylishly and with 283 fewer gear changes.

But, your general point of 'will this performance be enough' is probably very true. An EQS AMG will have enough range and performance to keep me very happy. But, the 10 or 20 year newer EV will be (I suspect) light years ahead rather than slightly better as has been the case with ICE for the last 20+ years.

In other words we hit peak ICE car between about 2000-2020. This was the asymptote that the gradient in car improvement had reached to before it petered out. EVs are still on the steep gradient of improvement imho... but I hope not

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

True, but I am a car nerd so tend to notice (but maybe not as modern MGs and Korean stuff I kind of have an internal high pass filter regarding that stuff).

Well maybe, I suppose I only really notice Teslas and MB EVs as they're the ones I can see the point in (as a private buyer).

They loose huge amounts primarily because most people like new things, even though 'new' and 'better' are not the same. Of course new can mean better, but only better is better, and sometimes old is better, but not as often as new is better, but generally, for someone with some aptitude, an old better car is possible to find.

True, but I can imagine that as soon as EVs are say 1/3-1/2 of the car population their running costs are going to approach ice as taxes rise and energy bills go up. Plus of course half the population cannot charge for pennies overnight.

80% depreciated 7 year old EQS AMG.... hmmmmmm nice

So you can’t notice most new EV’s.

Nothing to be embarrassed about there. I didn’t notice Europe’s biggest selling EV until recently. (The Zoe, which has been out there for a decade now)

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

So will people continue to buy used I4’s when new ones have got even more range, or are lighter? I think they will. Because three quarters of car owners drive vehicles they bought used.

And for someone with not a lot of money, doing 100 miles a week, a car that can be quietly plugged in at work, or home without visiting a petrol station will have an appeal.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I disagree. But even if true, as you say, then no, I suppose it doesn't matter as it is more than enough for me.

But is it true? Let's see........

Tech: What is better? Reliability? Satnav? Small mpg improvement? Errmm... there's not much that I personally value in new car tech that is worth having. Mine's got fuel injection and airbags and ABS and heated seats so that's pretty much me covered lol.

Emissions: Not interested. Or rather I am but in my total emissions not just one aspect of my technological life - my total carbon footprint is smaller than average.

Fuel consumption: Well compared to the most recent ICE AMG equivalent E class according to Honest John's real mpg website the E53 and E43 are around 24 mpg. My running average is 21 mpg. Yes important if I was doing 30k miles a year but not doing 6 or 7k.

Performance: E53 has 0-62 in 4.5 seconds. The CLS55 0-62 is 4.7 seconds. But the E53 is heavier and less powerful with much less torque. It achieves this performance by using 285 gear changes (slight exaggeration). In the real world on an A road sat at 50 mph, the CLS55 will overtake far more stylishly and with 283 fewer gear changes.

But, your general point of 'will this performance be enough' is probably very true. An EQS AMG will have enough range and performance to keep me very happy. But, the 10 or 20 year newer EV will be (I suspect) light years ahead rather than slightly better as has been the case with ICE for the last 20+ years.

In other words we hit peak ICE car between about 2000-2020. This was the asymptote that the gradient in car improvement had reached to before it petered out. EVs are still on the steep gradient of improvement imho... but I hope not

Picking up that earlier comment that it’s EVs driving at the speed limit, I’m not convinced that it’s EVs that have slowed us down. As an old buffed who still accelerates away from the lights, my impression is that people are simply driving slower for fuel economy and speeding points.

Check it out when you’re next out. Is it really Tesla’s who are really slowing traffic, or is it speed cameras and people saving money in Fords and Renaults?

 

[ALFAitalia]

I agree.....I see loads of ICE cars in between the trucks in the slow lane doing between 50 and 60. It started when the fuel went up to silly pence per litre a while back......and I think people who care about this stuff have realised that you can make quite an improvement on your MPG by dropping from 70 to 80 down to 50 to 60....which you can......and they have just carried on driving like that. Probably a few tree huggers amongst them to Id guess. On my car its about 5 mpg better........but I'm starting with an economical car....wont be the same gains with a more powerful petrol.....but lots of the cars in the truck lane are normal 2.0L type family cars.

 

[st13phil]

I see loads of ICE cars in between the trucks in the slow lane doing between 50 and 60. It started when the fuel went up to silly pence per litre a while back......

My experience pre-dates that. I noticed that free-flowing motorway traffic speeds were appreciably slower in the months immediately after the Covid lock-downs. My (uncorroborated) assumption was that many people hadn't driven much in the months prior and had lost confidence.

Travelling up and down the M1 and on the M40 / M25 in the last few weeks my observation is that speeds have largely returned to pre-2020 levels, although there are still possibly more cars trundling along at 50-60mph in lane 1 than there were previously. This is made more noticeable because the trucks have to keep pulling out to overtake them while running on the limiter.