Advice regarding driving to France and Switzerland

[MikeInWimbledon]

I still believe the main reason for range anxiety, at least in terms of keeping the speed down in an EV for fear of using the charge too quickly (ie lower fuel consumption) is because EVs give 100 graduations between empty and full, usually spelt out in big numbers on the dash, where on an ICE vehicle you might see 0-1/4-1/2-3/4-Full (although my Elise inaccurately states number of litres left as Refill, 11-33 & Full). You just get so much more accuracy of how the charge level/range is going down in a way that you do not so easily see a 10mpg difference between cruising at 50mph or 75 mph in an ICE car

If people have range anxiety, don't they look at miles until destination?

And does this really explain why ICE drivers, especially driving elderly ICE vehicles, go on and on and on about EV range....

while actual EV users barely talk about range at all.

Because they charge when they can, and don't "fill when they have to."

Especially in France when you can charge for free at a Carrefour Hypermarket

 

[nyssa7]

If people have range anxiety, don't they look at miles until destination?

And does this really explain why ICE drivers, especially driving elderly ICE vehicles, go on and on and on about EV range....

while actual EV users barely talk about range at all.

Because they charge when they can, and don't "fill when they have to."

Especially in France when you can charge for free at a Carrefour Hypermarket

The only time I care about the range left in my ICE cars are if the warning light comes on so I know how desperately I need to stop and refuel. On the EV it’s waved in my face constantly in large numbers so when consumption rate changes (driving faster) it’s a lot more obvious.

On long trips in an ICE car the trip is to refuel when you can off the motorways because the price difference at nearly all motorways services (M4 Leigh Delamere appears to be an exception) is scary

 

[BTB 500]

I still believe the main reason for range anxiety, at least in terms of keeping the speed down in an EV for fear of using the charge too quickly (ie lower fuel consumption) is because EVs give 100 graduations between empty and full, usually spelt out in big numbers on the dash, where on an ICE vehicle you might see 0-1/4-1/2-3/4-Full (although my Elise inaccurately states number of litres left as Refill, 11-33 & Full). You just get so much more accuracy of how the charge level/range is going down in a way that you do not so easily see a 10mpg difference between cruising at 50mph or 75 mph in an ICE car

Most ICE give remaining range in miles these days ... I don't think anyone ever goes by the gauge? This is our C Class, but even our 2007 Vito displays miles remaining.



EVs consume a lot more energy than normal at motorway speeds, hence the observation in this thread about stopping every 120 miles or so to avoid range anxiety (in a car with a WLTP range of about 300 miles).

On long trips in an ICE car the trip is to refuel when you can off the motorways because the price difference at nearly all motorways services (M4 Leigh Delamere appears to be an exception) is scary

Excluding long drives on the continent I don't think I've ever needed to buy fuel on a motorway!

 

[PXW]

EVs consume a lot more energy than normal at motorway speeds, hence the observation in this thread about stopping every 120 miles or so to avoid range anxiety (in a car with a WLTP range of about 300 miles).

The increased energy requirement for higher speeds is presumably essentially due to drag and mass - in other words exactly the same physical forces that make an ICE consume a lot more energy at higher speeds. I don’t know what “a lot more energy than normal” means in this context. But given that ICE vehicles already lose about 70% of their fuel energy in heat and noise, the impact of the remaining 30% falling to say 25% due to travelling at high speed is less noticeable perhaps than when the same is done in an EV where energy converted to motion is more like 95% efficient.

You talk about an EV with a WLTP of 300 miles still needing to stop every 120 miles due to range anxiety as if it is some general rule. It isn’t. I don’t stop every 120 miles to charge - why would I? And I don’t suffer from range anxiety at all. I simply charge as and when needed and convenient. Your comment might make sense if you drive and fuel an EV in the same way as an ICE - ie fill it up and then drive til empty/light comes on - but that’s not how you use an EV. It’s just different from the ICE fuelling model - not more anxiety inducing, not more inconvenient etc etc - just a different model.

 

[markjay]

The increased energy requirement for higher speeds is presumably essentially due to drag and mass - in other words exactly the same physical forces that make an ICE consume a lot more energy at higher speeds. I don’t know what “a lot more energy than normal” means in this context. But given that ICE vehicles already lose about 70% of their fuel energy in heat and noise, the impact of the remaining 30% falling to say 25% due to travelling at high speed is less noticeable perhaps than when the same is done in an EV where energy converted to motion is more like 95% efficient.

You talk about an EV with a WLTP of 300 miles still needing to stop every 120 miles due to range anxiety as if it is some general rule. It isn’t. I don’t stop every 120 miles to charge - why would I? And I don’t suffer from range anxiety at all. I simply charge as and when needed and convenient. Your comment might make sense if you drive and fuel an EV in the same way as an ICE - ie fill it up and then drive til empty/light comes on - but that’s not how you use an EV. It’s just different from the ICE fuelling model - not more anxiety inducing, not more inconvenient etc etc - just a different model.

I think that the issue is that with ICE cars, there are two opposing factors. On one hand, the faster you go the less fuel the car consumes per mile (due to the transmission gears), on the other hand the faster you go the more wind resistance there is. I reckon that for most ICE car the optimal speed for fuel efficiency is around 50mph.

With EVs, that (currently) have no gears, it's all stacked up in one direction: the faster you go, the less efficient the car is.

 

[190]

Because of differences in efficiency, the economic advantage that an EV holds over an IC diminishes rapidly at high speeds.

While there is variability, the efficiency of an EV's electric motor is flatter when compared to an ICE and in practical terms doesn't vary as much with speed. Given the power to overcome aerodynamic drag increases with the cube of the speed, then EV's consume vastly more power at motorway speeds.

Conversely an ICE's efficiency at converting fuel to power is all over the place and very far from linear. Forced induction complicates things but in broad terms efficiency roughly follows the torque curve therefore is most efficient at peak torque revs which tend to approximate to motorway speeds but the biggest factor is pumping losses which greatly affect efficiency depending on how far the throttle is open.

The end result is that as you approach peak torque revs, an ICE gets more efficient at converting fuel to power as revs and load increase. This offsets what would otherwise be a huge increase in fuel consumption at motorway speeds. This is best illustrated by showing specific fuel consumption graphs which show how much fuel is used to produce each unit of power output dependinging on load and rpm.

 

[markjay]

Because of differences in efficiency, the economic advantage that an EV holds over an IC diminishes rapidly at high speeds.

While there is variability, the efficiency of an EV's electric motor is flatter when compared to an ICE and in practical terms doesn't vary as much with speed. Given the power to overcome aerodynamic drag increases with the cube of the speed, then EV's consume vastly more power at motorway speeds.

Conversely an ICE's efficiency at converting fuel to power is all over the place and very far from linear. Forced induction complicates things but in broad terms efficiency roughly follows the torque curve therefore is most efficient at peak torque revs which tend to approximate to motorway speeds but the biggest factor is pumping losses which greatly affect efficiency depending on how far the throttle is open.

The end result is that as you approach peak torque revs, an ICE gets more efficient at converting fuel to power as revs and load increase. This offsets what would otherwise be a huge increase in fuel consumption at motorway speeds. This is best illustrated by showing specific fuel consumption graphs which show how much fuel is used to produce each unit of power output dependinging on load and rpm.


View attachment 156077

Another factor to consider, is that during city driving, which is typically associated with low speed, the EV will recuperate a significant amount of the energy it spent to propel itself forward, due to the frequent use of brakes. This is another reason why EV's overall energy efficiency goes down as the speed goes up.

This is the total opposite to (most) ICE cars, where all the brakes do is convert kinetic energy to heat via friction, and so simply wasting energy, meaning that ICE cars become more efficient when driven on roads where they are required to make little use of the brakes, typically on A roads and motorways.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The increased energy requirement for higher speeds is presumably essentially due to drag and mass - in other words exactly the same physical forces that make an ICE consume a lot more energy at higher speeds. I don’t know what “a lot more energy than normal” means in this context. But given that ICE vehicles already lose about 70% of their fuel energy in heat and noise, the impact of the remaining 30% falling to say 25% due to travelling at high speed is less noticeable perhaps than when the same is done in an EV where energy converted to motion is more like 95% efficient.

You talk about an EV with a WLTP of 300 miles still needing to stop every 120 miles due to range anxiety as if it is some general rule. It isn’t. I don’t stop every 120 miles to charge - why would I? And I don’t suffer from range anxiety at all. I simply charge as and when needed and convenient. Your comment might make sense if you drive and fuel an EV in the same way as an ICE - ie fill it up and then drive til empty/light comes on - but that’s not how you use an EV. It’s just different from the ICE fuelling model - not more anxiety inducing, not more inconvenient etc etc - just a different model.

Let’s not forget that for anyone with a driveway, the routine is to charge at home so they start most days with “a full tank.”

An unknown concept to poor little ICE drivers, like me.

 

[BTB 500]

The increased energy requirement for higher speeds is presumably essentially due to drag and mass - in other words exactly the same physical forces that make an ICE consume a lot more energy at higher speeds. I don’t know what “a lot more energy than normal” means in this context. But given that ICE vehicles already lose about 70% of their fuel energy in heat and noise, the impact of the remaining 30% falling to say 25% due to travelling at high speed is less noticeable perhaps than when the same is done in an EV where energy converted to motion is more like 95% efficient.

It's a simple and demonstrable fact that on a long/fast motorway run (where range is more relevant) EVs become less efficient for the reasons given above, and ICEs become more efficient. Our everyday car gives approximately 150 miles more range on a motorway run than in local driving, and that's a decent sized estate - not some super-slippery coupe.

You talk about an EV with a WLTP of 300 miles still needing to stop every 120 miles due to range anxiety as if it is some general rule. It isn’t. I don’t stop every 120 miles to charge - why would I?

It was a real-world example from this thread.

The Tesla Model 3 is exceptional - it's a small/low/sleek car with a large battery, so it has an excellent range to start with and would be less affected by aerodynamic drag at higher speeds. But as mentioned before Tesla owners have a tendency to view the world through Tesla-tinted glasses. You have a car with a lot of range to start with and you also have access to a private network of high-speed chargers ... so it may well be that range anxiety is less of an issue to you. But actually most owners who have a choice don't want to drive cars like that - taller SUV/crossover types are by far the most popular (to the extent that traditional estates are disappearing).

I note you also have an MG ZS:



How does that fare on a long motorway run? From a quick Google it has a best-case full charge range of 145 miles at 70 mph (based on 23C ambient temperature and no use of aircon). So 120 miles between motorway charges might be cutting it a bit fine in that.

 

[BTB 500]

Let’s not forget that for anyone with a driveway, the routine is to charge at home so they start most days with “a full tank.”

An unknown concept to poor little ICE drivers, like me.

Why would you or I want/need to start every day with a full tank? The screenshot I posted above (to show the 'miles remaining' display) was a 329 mile round trip to visit my mum - the tank was nowhere near full when I left, and I still had 92 miles of range when I got back. That's more than some EVs do on a full charge

 

[clk320x]

 

[Bellow]

Let’s not forget that for anyone with a driveway, the routine is to charge at home so they start most days with “a full tank.”

An unknown concept to poor little ICE drivers, like me.

Fill up on the way home today and see what tomorrow morning looks like.

 

[clk320x]

Fill up on the way home today and see what tomorrow morning looks like.

Ah but I thought it was highly inconvenient to deviate from your journey or stop en-route…

This would mean I cannot visit my elderly grandfather who lives a 1500 mile round trip away, even a slight increase in journey time means it’s truly impossible don’t you know…

 

[Bellow]

Ah but I thought it was highly inconvenient to deviate from your journey or stop en-route…

Nope. Once the day's work is done, no qualms about refuelling. Just not during the working day.
Increasingly I see guys sat in cars during the day recharging while I crack on working. Figure out for yourself which is more productive.

This would mean I cannot visit my elderly grandfather who lives a 1500 mile round trip away, even a slight increase in journey time means it’s truly impossible don’t you know…

Is there a reason grandfather lives 750 miles away?...

 

[markjay]

Why would you or I want/need to start every day with a full tank? The screenshot I posted above (to show the 'miles remaining' display) was a 329 mile round trip to visit my mum - the tank was nowhere near full when I left, and I still had 92 miles of range when I got back. That's more than some EVs do on a full charge

I would argue that it's the other way around...

If I plug-in my car at home before going to bed, why would I not just let it charge until the maximum level has been reached (80% or 100%, depending on circumstances)? I.e. it's not like I'm standing next to the car holding the pump nozzle.

However, when driving on the motorway and stopping at a fast charger, I'd only stop for as long as needed to top-up in order to allow me to finish my journey. Unlike with ICE cars, there's really no point in filling-up to the max while on the road, it's not needed, and it's a waste of time, and a waste of money, as the electricity from fast motorway charger is more expensive than electricity at home (Unless, of course, the driver needs a longer break than the EV needs for the top-up charging).

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Fill up on the way home today and see what tomorrow morning looks like.

Funnily enough I just have: £40.

150 miles today, back from Bridport to home.

Can’t believe it’s going to need another thirty quids worth of petrol tomorrow morning to start the day with a full tank.

20p a mile: ridiculous. Why do we keep giving so much money to the government and the oil producing nations? It would be just 7.5p a mile, charged from home.

Would have saved nearly £40 on this return trip, with an EV

It’s a shame EV’s aren’t yet as good to drive as a C class or Dreier.

 

[clk320x]

Nope. Once the day's work is done, no qualms about refuelling. Just not during the working day.
Increasingly I see guys sat in cars during the day recharging while I crack on working. Figure out for yourself which is more productive.

Your days work involves driving 250 miles as well as ‘working’?

 

[clk320x]

Funnily enough I just have: £40.

150 miles today, back from Bridport to home.

Can’t believe it’s going to need another thirty quids worth of petrol tomorrow morning to start the day with a full tank.

20p a mile: ridiculous. Why do we keep giving so much money to the government and the oil producing nations?

I’m surprised some of the virtue signallers concerned about raw material mining for battery manufacture are happy to overlook the various wars and exploitation linked to the oil industry.

Almost as ironic as their anti-China posts made from a Chinese manufactured tech device - with a Li-ion battery.

 

[Bellow]

Funnily enough I just have: £40.

150 miles today, back from Bridport to home.

Can’t believe it’s going to need another thirty quids worth of petrol tomorrow morning to start the day with a full tank.

Should've brimmed it then - at the nearest practical filling station before your final stop. Own it or moan it...

20p a mile: ridiculous. Why do we keep giving so much money to the government and the oil producing nations?

To subsidise EVs?

 

[Bellow]

Your days work involves driving 250 miles as well as ‘working’?

Not so much now but used to pretty routinely.