Advice regarding driving to France and Switzerland

[ALFAitalia]

But you are forgetting that over 80% of all EV charging is done whilst parked over night.......because most people don't do 2 or 300 miles in a day for 99% of the time.

 

[markjay]

I think you’re referring to Rapid Chargers, rather than ‘Superchargers’ (as in Tesla ones) - as the Superchargers in France typically have far more stalls, 20+ is practically the norm.

Eg:

Apologies, I am not too familiar with the Tesla lingo.... when I said 'superchargers' I meant chargers with charging capacity of at least 150kW.

The ones I used on France's motorways were all between 170kW and 350kW.

This is the site I used in Switzerland on the A9:

And this is the list of chargers at that location (just took a screenshot of the site's real-time availability online):

Where you also have slower 50kW chargers, the electricity from these chargers is typically cheaper than the faster chargers.

 

[markjay]

But you are forgetting that over 80% of all EV charging is done whilst parked over night.......because most people don't do 2 or 300 miles in a day for 99% of the time.

Correct, but at the same time many city dwellers also do a couple of long journeys a year, e.g. when going on holiday or visiting relatives etc, and for them to be satisfied with EV ownership the fast charging network in motorway services must be effective.

 

[st13phil]

But you are forgetting that over 80% of all EV charging is done whilst parked over night.......because most people don't do 2 or 300 miles in a day for 99% of the time.

I'm aware that's the current situation in the UK, but as @markjay says, when people do drive 200-300 miles in a day it's an issue. It's also an issue for those who can't use home charging.

 

[markjay]

...After all, if people have difficulties finding available public chargers now....

Personally, I've never had this issue, my trip to Switzerland was the first journey that exceeded my car's battery capacity, up to now I've never done a journey in the UK that required charging away from home. The longest journey I did in my EV in the UK was around 70-85* miles each way on the M40, and I got back home with 30% battery. That been said, it would be interesting to hear other non-Tesla EV drivers' experiences.

* Trying to check the distance on the map but can't remember the name of the village now.....

 

[BTB 500]

Argeed, though my logic says that the superchargers will be located mainly on motorways and other main routes? In cities, a standard 50kW public charger is more than enough for most. Drivers will be fine with a 10-15 minutes top up, given that the average speed in London is (from memory) around 10mph..... at that speed, you can drive all day long and not need to charge.

This is all chargers from 100 kW (not 150 kW) upwards, from Zapmap:



Some of the main routes appear to be quite well served but there are sizeable gaps if you zoom in.

There are a lot of high speed chargers in/around big cities ... e.g. London:



Birmingham:



Manchester:



Just as example the nearest main route to us is the A41, which takes traffic from the M6/M54 up towards Liverpool and North Wales. There isn't a single 100+ kW charger on this road, although you could divert to a McDonalds near Market Drayton which has 2 chargers (both 50 / 120 kW):

 

[rf065]

This is all chargers from 100 kW (not 150 kW) upwards, from Zapmap:

View attachment 155862

Some of the main routes appear to be quite well served but there are sizeable gaps if you zoom in.

There are a lot of high speed chargers in/around big cities ... e.g. London:

View attachment 155863

Birmingham:

View attachment 155864

Manchester:

View attachment 155865

Just as example the nearest main route to us is the A41, which takes traffic from the M6/M54 up towards Liverpool and North Wales. There isn't a single 100+ kW charger on this road, although you could divert to a McDonalds near Market Drayton which has 2 chargers (both 50 / 120 kW):

View attachment 155866

Top half of Scotland seems to be very scarce, not surprised though. Not that long ago even the petrol stations were closed on a Sunday.

 

[BTB 500]

Top half of Scotland seems to be very scarce, not surprised though. Not that long ago even the petrol stations were closed on a Sunday.

Wales is pretty empty too, but I guess at 20 mph EVs are pretty efficient

Not many fast chargers in the North West either.

 

[rf065]

Wales is pretty empty too, but I guess at 20 mph EVs are pretty efficient

Not many fast chargers in the North West either.

Latest news from Wales suggests some of these 20mph roads are going back to 30mph, they are not proving to be popular.

 

[clk320x]

This is all chargers from 100 kW (not 150 kW) upwards, from Zapmap:

That M6/74 stretch with the gaps isn’t too accurate, there are superchargers at Tebay (CA10) and Abington (ML12).

Would also be good to see the equivalent map including 50kW rapids - which are better versed for more rural deployment.

 

[clk320x]

No issues even in rural areas when including 50kW rapids (which are standard in rural zones such as the Scottish highlands). Plenty of folk doing the NC500 in EVs now. Realistically people in the rural areas are likely to have off street parking so surely these will only really be used by visitors to get back?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

As mentioned in the EV Fact thread there are currently 4,667 public fast chargers (150 kW or more) in the UK. I guess there will typically be several at each site, so that's not an awful lot of fast charging locations across the whole country (given that a fair number of them will be clustered in/around urban areas).

Who on earth would need so many, with the average EV barely doing 10,000 miles a year and so many being normally charged at home, at work or on a local street charger?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Yes, a couple of EV-driving friends own Teslas and their experience of public charging is much better than the non-Tesla EV drivers I know.

Which sort of reinforces my point that the public charging offer in the UK is well behind what is available in, for example, France. I realise that it's all a bit chicken and egg, but unless and until the situation improves drastically, the general public aren't going to be swayed by the benefits of EV ownership. After all, if people have difficulties finding available public chargers now when EV's represent just 2.3% of all road vehicles, it doesn't take a genius to see that things will get worse as BEV's become more common.

Dangerous generalisation here. France is a big old place. (2.5 times bigger than the UK but more importantly 4 times as big as England). Lovely that there are great ranks of unused chargers on the arterial motorways but that doesn’t tell you much about what happens going over the Pyrenees or in the Charente.

Not that commercial chargers matter to tight fisted Frenchmen who will all be charging at home. Or at work for free. Or at the Carrefour hypemarket for free.

Or slowly at the local restaurant during a two hour pastis, or lunch, or dinner

 

[BTB 500]

Who on earth would need so many

If you guess at an average of 6 chargers per site that's around 780 fast charging sites across the whole of the UK, which doesn't seem a huge number to me (given that there are more than ten times as many fuel forecourts).

with the average EV barely doing 10,000 miles a year

As we've discussed before it depends a bit on how that average 10k miles a year is done. 27 local miles a day would be no problem. But a 280 mile round trip on the motorways 3 times a month instead could be. I know it's a proven fact that nobody ever does that, but we did a 340 mile round trip on Wednesday and a 280 mile one today (and there would have been no option to charge an EV at either destination). Neither of us do any regular commuting - the vehicles are mostly used for fewer long runs. And it was the same before I retired as I commuted by train or worked from home. The last time I drove to work was in 1983

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

As we've discussed before it depends a bit on how that average 10k miles a year is done. 27 local miles a day would be no problem. But a 280 mile round trip on the motorways 3 times a month instead could be. I know it's a proven fact that nobody ever does that, but we did a 340 mile round trip on Wednesday and a 280 mile one today (and there would have been no option to charge an EV at either destination). Neither of us do any regular commuting - the vehicles are mostly used for fewer long runs. And it was the same before I retired as I commuted by train or worked from home. The last time I drove to work was in 1983

Why would anyone "think" that they need a 150kwh charger to top up in the middle of a day involving seven hours driving (340 mile round trip)?

(A charger delivering in excess of 400 miles range in an hour of charging)

Thanks for proving that there really isn't much demand to economically justify too many high speed chargers.

Which is why Sainsbury's Exeter has 12 empty high speed charging bays on a busy Saturday morning last week.

 

[rf065]

No issues even in rural areas when including 50kW rapids (which are standard in rural zones such as the Scottish highlands). Plenty of folk doing the NC500 in EVs now. Realistically people in the rural areas are likely to have off street parking so surely these will only really be used by visitors to get back?

You've shown the bottom half of Scotland, now try the top half for comparison.

 

[markjay]

Why would anyone "think" that they need a 150kwh charger to top up in the middle of a day involving seven hours driving (340 mile round trip)?

(A charger delivering in excess of 400 miles range in an hour of charging)

Thanks for proving that there really isn't much demand to economically justify too many high speed chargers.

Which is why Sainsbury's Exeter has 12 empty high speed charging bays on a busy Saturday morning last week.

View attachment 155877

Installing high-speed chargers if forward thinking.

The less time a car needs to spend connected to the charger, the more cars it can charge per hour.

A smaller number of high-speed chargers will provide the same overall charging capacity as a larger number of slower chargers.

This is true especially for motorway services, where cars are unlikely to remain connected to the charger and occupy the bay after the desired charging level has been achieved.

As for 350kW ultrafast chargers, the IONIQ 5's 220kW charging speed was ground breaking when this model was first released back in 2021, but I'm sure that even higher speeds will become the norm in future as the technology improves.

 

[clk320x]

You've shown the bottom half of Scotland, now try the top half for comparison.

Really isn’t an issue driving anywhere in the UK with the existing infrastructure.

The UK is tiny in comparison to other countries.

Plenty of people drive up to John O’Groates on the Tesla groups, and do the NC500.

 

[rf065]

How's this for an example of the problems of EV ownership, my son in law was offered one as a works car in place of his ICE car, he jumped at the chance of this newer/bigger car than the one he already had.
I pointed out to him that he lived in an end terrace at the bottom of a row of houses furthest from the roadway with no way of chargeing his car from home. Not a problem he says, I can charge it from work for free, or at the shops etc at the weekend.
Two months in and his house is up for sale and looking for a house with a driveway!

 

[clk320x]

How's this for an example of the problems of EV ownership, my son in law was offered one as a works car in place of his ICE car, he jumped at the chance of this newer/bigger car than the one he already had.
I pointed out to him that he lived in an end terrace at the bottom of a row of houses furthest from the roadway with no way of chargeing his car from home. Not a problem he says, I can charge it from work for free, or at the shops etc at the weekend.
Two months in and his house is up for sale and looking for a house with a driveway!

Struggling to see the relevance of that? Clearly if he can afford a house with a driveway that’s a massive bonus, so all I can see is an EV accelerated the switch?

If he can charge at work for free then home charging is hardly a requirement apart from Saturday night I guess? Seeing as he has to go to work, there’s no inconvenience by having the car plugged in.