Advise On faulty product that led to an accident

[markjay]

This is not a comment on this particular case (I have no idea whether MB's examination was good or bad) but there are well-established techniques for carrying out engineering failure analysis (EFA) that can reliably separate cause from effect. One of the most crucial elements of such analysis is Data Preservation - in other words that as much evidence as possible is collected from the failed equipment before it is disturbed in any way. Once it's been disturbed (by moving or dismantling it - both of which have occurred in this case) subsequent Failure Analysis becomes more difficult and less reliable.

The photo's (presumably taken immediately after the event?) and any contemporaneous records that the OP has will be useful input to any further investigation. The car itself that has been moved and dismantled will undoubtedly yield information, but whether it will lead to an irrefutable cause being identified is another matter.

Very good point.

 

[shyam27]

Hi Jcombzy, firstly and most importantly, it's good to hear that nobody was hurt and everyone left the scene without a mark. Your story is quiet disturbing, I can't imagine what was going through your mind during the incident.

Secondly, may I ask why you were charged for the work on rim replacement, two tyres, pads etc? Wasn't your car still under warranty?

Looking at your photos, I've never seen a wheel split like that from an accident as you describe, looks pretty shocking. Was that particular tyre holding tyre pressure/did it have a slow puncture?

Alloy wheels are usually manufactured by casting. The molten metal is poured into a cavity which then sets and forms your alloy.

Look closely at where it has split and try and see if the atomic structure of the alloy is powdered/porous/has any voids? If you can see any of those things then you may well have a strong case. If you can afford it, then I would try to get that wheel X-rayed which will certainly provide conclusive evidence of any voids.

After hearing some of the stories on here, I am now, not surprised with the response and service you've had from MB. They will be most interested in protecting the image of their shitty 'high class/status' brand and will lie to protect it. I just hope they haven't altered any of the evidence.

Anyway, all the worms will crawl out the woodwork and start having a go for talking bad about MB. I better stop..

If you want to avoid these problems in the future, then buy a Japanese car. Last year they dominated on reliability index, like they have always done tbf. Mercedes came in at 23rd place (same level of reliability as a Fiat), I'll let that speak for itself.

But some of us would rather buy a car with high class (whatever that is) then high reliability.

Japanese brands dominate car reliability survey

 

[markjay]

Some years ago an electrical piece of kit that we supplied caught fire while on the customer's site.

Luckily no one was hurt and the only direct damage from the fire was to the kit itself.

The customer claimed on their own insurance.

The total claim was around £40k, comprising from the cost of replacing the fire-damaged kit, plus the cost of making good the damages to the building caused by the fire service while breaking their way in.

The local fire service appointed an external forensic investigator to inestigate the cause of the fire (standard procedure).

The external investigator contacted the manufacturer and asked them for their input.

The manufacturer said that the fire was caused due to incorrect maintenance procedures, and this was the showing as the cause of fire of the official report produced by the fire service.

The external investigator was a generalist and not one who specialises in electrical fires, or is familiar with the particular kit, so not surprisingly he simply accepted the manufacturer's response then 'copied-and-pasted' it into the official fire service report.

The customer's insurer received a copy of the fire service official report, and then claimed the cost off our own insurer. Not unreasonable, as we were responsible for the maintenance of the kit at the time of the fire.

Very sensible so far, apart for the fact that it was total b0ll0cks. The fire was caused by a component that failed due to a manufacturing defect, combined with poor design (there was no fail-safe to prevent a fire in case this particular component failed). Furthermore, the maintenance procedure that the manufacturer claimed was not followed, did not even exit... there was no mention of it in any of the documentation provided. They just made it up as they went.

Our insurer decided to fight the case and appointed an independent forensic investigator who specialises in this particular area.

Our insurer's investigator made an appointment to meet on site with the manufacturer's representative and their own expert.

The meeting was brief. Our insurer's investigator stood next to the burnt-out kit, pointed there, there, and there, while exchanging a quite word with the other chaps.

The other chaps mostly looked at their shoes while the investigator was talking... and then quickly said they will cover the cost of the damage in full, no questions asked. The non-existent 'maintenance procedure' was not mentioned again.

The moral of the story is that it is not easy to get a manufacturer to admit that a manufacturing defect is responsible for an incident which could have potentially cost lives.

Hope this helps.

 

[oldguy57]

Some years ago an electrical piece of kit that we supplied caught fire while on the customer's site.

Luckily no one was hurt and the only direct damage from the fire was to the kit itself.

The customer claimed on their own insurance.

The total claim was around £40k, comprising from the cost of replacing the fire-damaged kit, plus the cost of making good the damages to the building caused by the fire service while breaking their way in.

The local fire service appointed an external forensic investigator to inestigate the cause of the fire (standard procedure).

The external investigator contacted the manufacturer and asked them for their input.

The manufacturer said that the fire was caused due to incorrect maintenance procedures, and this was the showing as the cause of fire of the official report produced by the fire service.

The external investigator was a generalist and not one who specialises in electrical fires, or is familiar with the particular kit, so not surprisingly he simply accepted the manufacturer's response then 'copied-and-pasted' it into the official fire service report.

The customer's insurer received a copy of the fire service official report, and then claimed the cost off our own insurer. Not unreasonable, as we were responsible for the maintenance of the kit at the time of the fire.

Very sensible so far, apart for the fact that it was total b0ll0cks. The fire was caused by a component that failed due to a manufacturing defect, combined with poor design (there was no fail-safe to prevent a fire in case this particular component failed). Furthermore, the maintenance procedure that the manufacturer claimed was not followed, did not even exit... there was no mention of it in any of the documentation provided. They just made it up as they went.

Our insurer decided to fight the case and appointed an independent forensic investigator who specialises in this particular area.

Our insurer's investigator made an appointment to meet on site with the manufacturer's representative and their own expert.

The meeting was brief. Our insurer's investigator stood next to the burnt-out kit, pointed there, there, and there, while exchanging a quite word with the other chaps.

The other chaps mostly looked at their shoes while the investigator was talking... and then quickly said they will cover the cost of the damage in full, no questions asked. The non-existent 'maintenance procedure' was not mentioned again.

The moral of the story is that it is not easy to get a manufacturer to admit that a manufacturing defect is responsible for an incident which could have potentially cost lives.

Hope this helps.

I recognise this scenario instantly, having attended many many meetings where experts and forensic investigators have come together. In most cases each side have their own agenda and will not be swayed by the others arguments no matter what the evidence is. What I would not be doing is relying on Insurers experts to determine the problem with the wheel. What you need is a specialist materials expert who can xray and do other tests to determine whether the wheel composition and construction are correct. Some Universities are able to do this. Depends how far you would want to take it. Dreadful experience you had there Op.

 

[Petrol Pete]

Just like that other German finance company (that happens to build cars) VW. it took the bloody FBI and the US government to finally get them to admit to their blatant lies about emissions, and that’s in a country that has little or no diesel models ! VW (the lying scum) are paying out billions in the USA, how much have they paid out in the UK ? these (German government backed) car firms will admit to NOTHING that might hurt their (already dodgy) reputations.

 

[markjay]

I recognise this scenario instantly, having attended many many meetings where experts and forensic investigators have come together. In most cases each side have their own agenda and will not be swayed by the others arguments no matter what the evidence is. What I would not be doing is relying on Insurers experts to determine the problem with the wheel. What you need is a specialist materials expert who can xray and do other tests to determine whether the wheel composition and construction are correct. Some Universities are able to do this. Depends how far you would want to take it. Dreadful experience you had there Op.

I think the main difficultly here is cost... if the damage to the car is considerable, then his insurer might support him in his endeavours to disprove MB's theory.

However, given that the insurer is not usually reimbursed for the cost they incur if a settlement is reached, they might not have the appetite to put up a fight over £2-3k.

In this case the OP will have to decide if he wants to spend his own money on this, or just take it on the chin (in terms of excess and potential future premium hike) and just claim the damage off his own motor insurance policy.

 

[m80]

It makes me wonder how many more people are driving round with wheels waiting to part like this.

 

[oldguy57]

I think the main difficultly here is cost... if the damage to the car is considerable, then his insurer might support him in his endeavours to disprove MB's theory.

However, given that the insurer is not usually reimbursed for the cost they incur if a settlement is reached, they might not have the appetite to put up a fight over £2-3k.

In this case the OP will have to decide if he wants to spend his own money on this, or just take it on the chin (in terms of excess and potential future premium hike) and just claim the damage off his own motor insurance policy.

Yep everything boils down to costs.

 

[Petrol Pete]

Just like BMW recently with cars that just stop dead, someone died but he was not in the BMW he was coming up behind it an swerved to avoid a dead BMW in the road.

He's dead but BMW are clean, not their fault. Not directly ,and not in the eye's of the law.

Not sure if BMW are still denying that there is a problem with some of their cars stopping dead. I would be surprised if they would admit any liability.

 

[E55BOF]

After hearing some of the stories on here, I am now, not surprised with the response and service you've had from MB. They will be most interested in protecting the image of their shitty 'high class/status' brand and will lie to protect it. I just hope they haven't altered any of the evidence.

Anyway, all the worms will crawl out the woodwork and start having a go for talking bad about MB. I better stop..

If you want to avoid these problems in the future, then buy a Japanese car. Last year they dominated on reliability index, like they have always done tbf. Mercedes came in at 23rd place (same level of reliability as a Fiat), I'll let that speak for itself.

But some of us would rather buy a car with high class (whatever that is) then high reliability.

Japanese brands dominate car reliability survey

One rather wonders why you are on this forum, devoted as it is to shitty cars. You don't seem to add much, so perhaps you should return to the woodwork you mention...

 

[markjay]

Hi Jcombzy, firstly and most importantly, it's good to hear that nobody was hurt and everyone left the scene without a mark. Your story is quiet disturbing, I can't imagine what was going through your mind during the incident.

Secondly, may I ask why you were charged for the work on rim replacement, two tyres, pads etc? Wasn't your car still under warranty?

Looking at your photos, I've never seen a wheel split like that from an accident as you describe, looks pretty shocking. Was that particular tyre holding tyre pressure/did it have a slow puncture?

Alloy wheels are usually manufactured by casting. The molten metal is poured into a cavity which then sets and forms your alloy.

Look closely at where it has split and try and see if the atomic structure of the alloy is powdered/porous/has any voids? If you can see any of those things then you may well have a strong case. If you can afford it, then I would try to get that wheel X-rayed which will certainly provide conclusive evidence of any voids.

After hearing some of the stories on here, I am now, not surprised with the response and service you've had from MB. They will be most interested in protecting the image of their shitty 'high class/status' brand and will lie to protect it. I just hope they haven't altered any of the evidence.

Anyway, all the worms will crawl out the woodwork and start having a go for talking bad about MB. I better stop..

If you want to avoid these problems in the future, then buy a Japanese car. Last year they dominated on reliability index, like they have always done tbf. Mercedes came in at 23rd place (same level of reliability as a Fiat), I'll let that speak for itself.

But some of us would rather buy a car with high class (whatever that is) then high reliability.

Japanese brands dominate car reliability survey

a. We have an 1997 Toyota Previa that we had from new and is still going strong. So I can't argue with you about Japanese cars' reliability.


b. Having said that... your post above is OT. This thread is not about the reliability of MB wheel rims. It's about MB's corporate culture of blame shifting. And unfortunately in this respect MB are no different to any other multinational corporation, including Japanese ones. See for example:

Toyota to pay $1.3 billion for deadly defect cover-up - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

So do you really think that Toyota (or Nissan, or Suzuki, or Mazda, or Subaru) would have accepted liability for the accident caused by a poorly-made wheel rim?

Or, let's put it this way, if you plan on buying a Japanese car simply because you assume that the manufacturer will come clean in the first instance in the event of a potentiality-lethal manufacturing defect... then all I can say is Good Luck with that.


c. Where I do think MB got it wrong on this occasion, is not so much in not accepting legal liability in the first instance (as I said, no other corporation would either), but in not making a goodwill offer, given the proximity of the rim failure to the purchase date.

 

[Delayed Steve]

I think you might as well let the insurance repair the car and leave it at that.
MB have decided it's not their fault and they're not going change their mind. They can afford better legal teams than you, so what's the point.
Even if you win they'll just appeal and keep doing that till you run out of money.
You could try the motoring press but if MB advertise with them then they won't want to upset the apple cart.
It's not right but you can't win and do you really want all the hassle ..

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Who was that bloke who took on MB over some problem with his S class?

As I recall he became obsessed, made it personal, dug his heels in, skinted himself and never drove his expensive car again.

Might be worth the OP looking up the thread for tips on how not to do things.

 

[PobodY]

What you need is a specialist materials expert who can xray and do other tests to determine whether the wheel composition and construction are correct. Some Universities are able to do this. Depends how far you would want to take it.

This sounds like something the company I work for could do; we already do work for the likes of AMG HPP, Red Bull, Rolls Royce, GE, and a variety of ceramic manufacturers.

Most of the metals analysis is done in the states, but we do have microstructure and surface science technology in Stoke. We are not cheap to retain, but maybe there's some free resources that might be helpful?
Product & Material Failure Analysis & Consultancy

(This isn't my area of expertise, but I can probably find a colleague who knows something relevant.)

 

[markjay]

Who was that bloke who took on MB over some problem with his S class?

As I recall he became obsessed, made it personal, dug his heels in, skinted himself and never drove his expensive car again.

Might be worth the OP looking up the thread for tips on how not to do things.

His username was robertjrt .

 

[T5R+]

There seem to be many posts on the car forums over "poor" alloy wheels and failures.

Wonder if somebody actually has data to establish if it is an actual trend versus non-fact.

Naturally, MB/BMW/Jaguar (these are the ones that catch my eye) can revert with usual market spiel "we sell a gizzillion cars globally and there has found to a limited number of failures by owners due to diverse reasons resulting in issues in 0.00000001%"

Until recently I was cynical and put it down to people mistreating their cars eg bumping up/down kerbs eg not caring about driving through potholes/ditches but now wonder if there are inherent flaws in design or defective manufacturing creeping in due to cost saving targets.

Glad OP and family okay.

OP - worth reiterating concerns to your insurer and asking that they assign a "motor independent engineer specialising in steering and wheel components"

 

[oldguy57]

His username was robertjrt .

Yep that was an horrendous story. Worth reading just to see the lengths some will go to.

 

[grober]

Cast Wheels VS Forged Wheels, What's the difference?
and a video of how some are made----should not be taken as gospel but gives an idea.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[PobodY]

Billet is what you want really, but that's an expense most people can't justify.

 

[Felstmiester]

I’ll be honest and say I haven’t read every post in this. But when I started reading the first post by the op and he said after the noise the car veered across the road. My first thought was his power steering ( auxiliary belt ) had gone. But reading on not the case.

This just goes to show with all the posts about Mb wheels cracking there is obviously something inferior about the metal they are using. Let’s not forget these are not bigger wheels that the owner has chose to put on, they’re original wheels designed for the car. My god imagine if this had happened at speed with an artic lorry coming towards you!! Kinda makes me glad I have aftermarket wheels on mine.