Anyone watch Mr Bates vs The Post Office ?

[philnewmerc]

Every organisation suffers from inept software design. Huge, huge write offs and adjustments occur in any bank or accounting system.

Horizon was bespoke to the UK Post Office - no other company has a need for it. (OK, it's built on generic standard software packages and tools, but really their problem comes from the overall Horizon system design and implementation).

As you point out, these guys lost money on rounding and adjustments, and that triggered alarm bells. What you can be equally sure of is that others MADE money on rounding and adjustments, and - perhaps strangely - they didn't complain about it. It's unlikely that the Post office HQ "made the money" that the sub-postmasters lost.

The 700 cases were about relatively tiny sums of money - a few million, in the context of a whole business that turned over around £10,000,000,000 during that decade. "A billion here, a billion there, soon you're talking significant sums of money" compared to a handful of million.

The Accountants and Lawyers at the Post Office should have sorted this out more than a decade ago. That much is clear. But watch out when you write that cheque for £150 million to pay off everyone involved: the main beneficiaries will be a lot of lawyers and accountants, on both sides, who'll be buying holiday homes in Southern Spain on the profits that they're now making from the payoff.

These were not rounding errors. The documentary showed the lawyer found error documents where the Horizon had lost communication (and therefore inputs). These were sometimes spotted and sometimes manually adjusted, but some Horizon tills seem to have been worse than others and calculations missed. The Sikh lady's prosecution failed because her Horizon till went off for repair and was not available as evidence. - judge at the time said well it must be faulty then therefore PO cannot prove it was working correctly (but that was a one off). Plus, the Post Office swore blind that no one except post masters had access to their accounts when in fact Fujitsu IT nerds did (and were tampering with the numbers). This is pretty different to normal rounding errors or skimming.

Pure speculation: It could be conceivable that some post masters were used to skimming tens of pounds here and there and when the PO came knocking with a £10k bill they paid up in a panic...

 

[m80]

Paula Vennells - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Interesting reading.
Working as an exec' in the P.O. it 'might' be reasonable to assume she was aware of much of the Horizon issues.
By the time she hit top office in 2012 even more so.

She turned the loss of the P.O. to a profit, well done lass.
I assume that's why she was awarded her CBE in 2019, with cases already appealed, and the scandal well in public knowledge.
Will her reversing the P.O.'s losses still be true after the legal costs, and compensation payouts?

I foresee a documentary on Fennels, and her rise and fall (as grace), well another Panorama Special at least.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

These were not rounding errors. The documentary showed the lawyer found error documents where the Horizon had lost communication (and therefore inputs). These were sometimes spotted and sometimes manually adjusted, but some Horizon tills seem to have been worse than others and calculations missed. The Sikh lady's prosecution failed because her Horizon till went off for repair and was not available as evidence. - judge at the time said well it must be faulty then therefore PO cannot prove it was working correctly (but that was a one off). Plus, the Post Office swore blind that no one except post masters had access to their accounts when in fact Fujitsu IT nerds did (and were tampering with the numbers). This is pretty different to normal rounding errors or skimming.

Pure speculation: It could be conceivable that some post masters were used to skimming tens of pounds here and there and when the PO came knocking with a £10k bill they paid up in a panic...

Fair point. I was simplifying the term to express what routinely gets lost in reconciliations and glitches between software and as a result of hardware errors.

Also highlighting that software errors that are NOT in the recipients favour get highlighted while those which are of benefit quickly get brushed over.

Another point which needs highlighting is that that Horizon replaced a laughable manual platform so, to its credit it was genuinely “trying” to drag an appalling embarrassing bureaucracy into the 21st century.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Paula Vennells - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Interesting reading.
Working as an exec' in the P.O. it 'might' be reasonable to assume she was aware of much of the Horizon issues.
By the time she hit top office in 2012 even more so.

She turned the loss of the P.O. to a profit, well done lass.
I assume that's why she was awarded her CBE in 2019, with cases already appealed, and the scandal well in public knowledge.
Will her reversing the P.O.'s losses still be true after the legal costs, and compensation payouts?

I foresee a documentary on Fennels, and her rise and fall (as grace), well another Panorama Special at least.

Yes, the Post Office went from losing hundreds of millions into one making hundreds of millions.

Then she left and the business has returned to losing hundreds of millions

Even with a one-off generous payout of £150 million to the lawyers and accountants involved in the case, that’s still roughly the same amount as the Post Office now loses each and every year.

It’s easy to blame the woman at the top who was trying to make sense of this out of control bureaucracy, but the real blame lies firmly in the middle level with the incompetent management.

Still, if this all hastens the sale of the Post Office to Deutsche Post, I guess it’s another loss-making British bureaucracy off British Government hands.

 

[oldguy57]

Sorry, but I didn't say it was "the point." I just pointed out that - to be blunt - hysterically exaggerating the issue - doesn't do much towards getting it fixed.

And... as I pointed out later on, if the system was faulty, what happened to the other 10,300 Post Offices over that ten years? They weren't taken to court, but were there claims? Did other Postmasters NOT have a problem, did other Postmasters HAVE a problem but hid it, by subsidising it from their own pockets?

Skimming and fraud is common in post offices, banks and in any cash handling retail business. Both at owner and employee level. Most cases don't reach court - it's not to anyone's benefit to publish or fight a case. Watch the young, and the old, and everyone in between, not checking the cash they receive. Yes, the majority do, but a significant minority don't.

It's ridiculous to say that the Archbishop of Canterbury should be fired because a Churchwarden or Curate skims a few hundred out of the plate down in Cornwall. The responsibility sits much lower down to actually manage the transactions, monitor the numbers, and take action when things appear to be be going wrong.

IT systems like this are rife with imbalances on accounts, in every form of business. It's grist to the mill for junior accountants (aka bookkeepers). Even your local self employed taxi driver knows that the accounts never add up correctly.

Is it a scam that the accounts in your local Coop don't add up? Nope. It's routine retail.

At the market, or in a small bar, on the weekend? Watch out for the staff skimming the takings, and short-changing people who they spot aren't noticing what's going on.

I wouldn't call hundreds of prosecutions of innocent people hysterically exaggerating the issue. It seems a shame that after all these years it takes a tv programme to highlight the issue which was happening for well over 10 years and cost some people hundreds of thousands of pounds. Scotland Yard have now become involved looking at perjury and perverting the course of justice. Quite rightly too.

 

[m80]

I wouldn't call hundreds of prosecutions of innocent people hysterically exaggerating the issue. It seems a shame that after all these years it takes a tv programme to highlight the issue which was happening for well over 10 years and cost some people hundreds of thousands of pounds. Scotland Yard have now become involved looking at perjury and perverting the course of justice. Quite rightly too.

But wrongly due to the massive miscarriage of justice and arrogant disregard of justice gaining so much public interest.
Otherwise I'm guessing the police and politicians may well have carried on pretending ignorance.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I wouldn't call hundreds of prosecutions of innocent people hysterically exaggerating the issue. It seems a shame that after all these years it takes a tv programme to highlight the issue which was happening for well over 10 years and cost some people hundreds of thousands of pounds. Scotland Yard have now become involved looking at perjury and perverting the course of justice. Quite rightly too.

Nor would I. As I very carefully said, I have complete sympathy with the case

but it's a lie to say that "700 were scammed out of their life savings," and that "most lost their homes." Both statements are false and hysterical exaggeration.

Wrong doing? For sure. Idiots? Certainly. Who failed? Certainly the IT guys, the Accountants, the post office clerks and managers, the solicitors, barristers and general legal system that prosecuted them.

OK, it's not the hysterical exaggeration that cause us to close down the country on and off for two years, borrowing £400 billion (£10,000 per tax payer) to give workers paid holiday, but this media circus stinks of over-reaction because of an ITV play broadcast during a quiet news period.

Like the illegal invasion of Iraq, and the Covid farce, this case requires an appropriate quick response, but let's not turn it into prolonged political and legal farce at the cost of another £100 million quid. Even if it is only taxpayers money that's being wasted on lawyers and accountancy fees.

 

[m80]

Then she left and the business has returned to losing hundreds of millions

If her work had restructured the P.O. into becoming a much more efficient organisation, how can this return to being pathetic due to her departure? Did it resort to being managed by the onions or summat?

 

[m80]

this media circus stinks of over-reaction because of an ITV play broadcast during a quiet news period.

but let's not turn it into prolonged political and legal farce at the cost of another £100 million quid

But the scandal has been going on for many years.
Imo it was about time it became a greater known scandal than it was, although I'm surprised if the majority weren't already aware of the subbies dilemma's, and on a large scale.

But my earlier suggestion of effectively cancelling all subby, past and present, results of persecutions would save the retrial costs, and time, and even some P.O. embarrassment.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

If her work had restructured the P.O. into becoming a much more efficient organisation, how can this return to being pathetic due to her departure? Did it resort to being managed by the onions or summat?

Dunno, Guv. Don't even know whether she can genuinely claim the credit for tightening it up, or the credit for it falling apart afterwards.

Some will say that the Post Office has failed to maintain and develop its letter, parcel, and banking service business lines in the face from the likes of Amazon, Hermes, and the other Micky Mouse banking services providers, from Revolut to Starling, from Halifax to Direct Line.

Thank the Lord that the Post Office doesn't run anything important like Supermarkets or Petrol stations.

Who knows, the accounts may be hiding other chicanery as numbers were managed to give the impression of profit when it wasn't actually there. (Sounds ridiculous but it's routine)

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

But my earlier suggestion of effectively cancelling all subby, past and present, results of persecutions would save the retrial costs, and time, and even some P.O. embarrassment.

Amen. Much better to pay people off and set aside persecutions, rather than going into retrials, and an extended legal enquiry

You're right, the reputational damage has already been done and it makes no sense to make it worse. It's going to be hard enough to recruit - and pay - people to run Post Office branches going forward.

My complaint about the media circus is that, as you say, we've known about this for a decade now, but just because of a bit of telly, we're making the story even worse.

 

[John N]

What is puzzling me, is the fact that those involved are being offered £600,000 OR £163,000 if they intend to pursue the PO!

To me that is a Bribe and In Public.

 

[baxlin]

Apropos not a lot, I used to be a Building Society branch manager, and one of the golden rules that was drilled into us at a very early stage, was that if a till, on being balanced, came up with a shortfall, no way was it to be made up from personal resources. The simple reason was that if money could be put in for a shortfall, it would be very easy to take it out in the event of a surplus…

No, the non-balance had to be recorded.

 

[Swotty]

It gets even murkier.

Gillian Keegan's (Education Secretary) husband was the CEO of Fujitsu at the time of all this.

It's a small club ... and we ain't in it.

 

[MrGreedy]

I've followed this for years (well, 5+).
I've mentioned this to countless friends and colleagues and family. Whilst I've been totally outraged at what appears to be (or should be) criminal behaviour of the coverup all along and have written to my scumbag self-promoting gravy train riding MP, everyone I've mentioned it to has, to give a suitable anology, yawned and taken the position of (i) asking why do I care when it doesn't directly impact me and (ii) almost seemed offended that I even introduced such a boring conversation point that in no way benefits them personally.

I think this sums up a majority view in society, so no wonder this sort of thing doesn't gain any traction except for the short period of time it is shoved in their mainstream content consuming faces.

 

[Connoisseur]

Skimming and fraud is common in post offices, banks and in any cash handling retail business. Both at owner and employee level. Most cases don't reach court - it's not to anyone's benefit to publish or fight a case. Watch the young, and the old, and everyone in between, not checking the cash they receive. Yes, the majority do, but a significant minority don't.

What you say is simply untrue and you have no evidence to support such a tabloidesque claim. You say fraud is ‘common’, then attempt later to walk the same back Why so comfortable attacking ordinary Brits while protecting the highly paid bosses who create a culture of big bonuses for themselves whatever the company results, while screwing employees, whatever the company results?

Fujitsu are still coining it in from the taxpayer, despite their central role in this corruption and sleaze which led to deaths (suicides), bankruptcies and jailings, all of which are evidenced in full. There is a host of public evidence of complete knowledge and involvement in the corruption, immorality and cover up at the top level of the PO and Fujitsu, with hundreds of lives consigned to the trash bin to protect the jobs and bonuses of the few at the top. Is that so difficult to accept?

 

[Connoisseur]

Dryce said;

Turning to the Knight of the Realm Sir Keir Starmer, it was his personal decision as then the DPP, not to prosecute Savile nor the Northern rape gangs. Should this not be reviewed as he puts himself forward to become PM?

Another untruth, wildly disproved and only used to try and discredit by desperate extremists across a range of weird forums inhabited by loons. Why repost such rubbish here, unless as too obvious whataboutery from a Sunak fanboi?

 

[philnewmerc]

Nor would I. As I very carefully said, I have complete sympathy with the case

but it's a lie to say that "700 were scammed out of their life savings," and that "most lost their homes." Both statements are false and hysterical exaggeration.

Wrong doing? For sure. Idiots? Certainly. Who failed? Certainly the IT guys, the Accountants, the post office clerks and managers, the solicitors, barristers and general legal system that prosecuted them.

OK, it's not the hysterical exaggeration that cause us to close down the country on and off for two years, borrowing £400 billion (£10,000 per tax payer) to give workers paid holiday, but this media circus stinks of over-reaction because of an ITV play broadcast during a quiet news period.

Like the illegal invasion of Iraq, and the Covid farce, this case requires an appropriate quick response, but let's not turn it into prolonged political and legal farce at the cost of another £100 million quid. Even if it is only taxpayers money that's being wasted on lawyers and accountancy fees.

You're never going to be rolling in it as a subpostmaster. So being accused of losing 20k might sound very modest to some but it is huge to others. And if the only thing you've ever been able to do is run your own little corner shop post office and you suddenly can't do anymore, that is both a humiliation and a massive loss in modest earnings you would have otherwise put towards your life savings. Plus the character assassination by being a good story for the local newspaper... "Pillar of the community had his hand in the till!", etc. The real nastiness for me was that the PO knew there were dozens and eventually hundreds of similar cases but they always told each individual that there were no other reports of problems. That was a lie and cruel. They also, in some cases, found zero evidence of fraud, but because the computer system said there was an imbalance, they told the postmaster that there was evidence of fraud in order to get them to accept the plea bargain where they pleaded guilty to false accounting but not too theft. This was downright evil. They acted like a corrupt police force (and they have police powers, they pushed the prosecutions not the police). And you're right, it was tens or hundreds of middle management types who only care about their next promotion and a pay rise based on their "performance", ie nicking innocent postmasters. And to use a very old worn out cliche, they really are the same sort of people who would have stood at Nuremberg and said "look I was just following orders like everyone else"...

 

[oldguy57]

If her work had restructured the P.O. into becoming a much more efficient organisation, how can this return to being pathetic due to her departure? Did it resort to being managed by the onions or summat?

Yes exactly. One wonders what she got up to during her stay at the PO, apart from allowing unlawful prosecutions. Some perhaps imaginative accounting to exaggerate the results? And no I'm not a conspiracy nut. We've all seen how indie auditors have been involved in skulduggery over companies accounting systems, especially KPMG et al.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

What you say is simply untrue and you have no evidence to support such a tabloidesque claim. You say fraud is ‘common’, then attempt later to walk the same back Why so comfortable attacking ordinary Brits while protecting the highly paid bosses who create a culture of big bonuses for themselves whatever the company results, while screwing employees, whatever the company results?

Fujitsu are still coining it in from the taxpayer, despite their central role in this corruption and sleaze which led to deaths (suicides), bankruptcies and jailings, all of which are evidenced in full. There is a host of public evidence of complete knowledge and involvement in the corruption, immorality and cover up at the top level of the PO and Fujitsu, with hundreds of lives consigned to the trash bin to protect the jobs and bonuses of the few at the top. Is that so difficult to accept?

What is “simply untrue?” Work or watch any form of retail and you’ll see it around you : from pubs to groceries. It’s not unique to Brits - you’ll see it in every country.

It was certainly true in the manual process of the old 21st century post office, and it was routine NOT to prosecute when fraud was found in retail, finance or banking because of the reputational damage involved.

I’m not protecting “highly paid bosses.” I’ve repeatedly blamed the accountants, lawyers and managers in middle management who failed to manage and audit these things properly and who brought these cases to trial. ( Although, TBF I don’t believe for one minute that the woman or the director level at the very top should have stuck her nose in to audit the accounts of Welsh sub-post offices.)