Anyone watch Mr Bates vs The Post Office ?

[oldguy57]

Apropos not a lot, I used to be a Building Society branch manager, and one of the golden rules that was drilled into us at a very early stage, was that if a till, on being balanced, came up with a shortfall, no way was it to be made up from personal resources. The simple reason was that if money could be put in for a shortfall, it would be very easy to take it out in the event of a surplus…

No, the non-balance had to be recorded.

Funnily enough my dad was a Building Society manager and way back then if a till didn't add up he had to send the person responsible to collect money or give it back to the customer at home. I'm guessing that staff soon learned to be extra careful.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

You're never going to be rolling in it as a subpostmaster. So being accused of losing 20k might sound very modest to some but it is huge to others. And if the only thing you've ever been able to do is run your own little corner shop post office and you suddenly can't do anymore, that is both a humiliation and a massive loss in modest earnings you would have otherwise put towards your life savings. Plus the character assassination by being a good story for the local newspaper... "Pillar of the community had his hand in the till!", etc. The real nastiness for me was that the PO knew there were dozens and eventually hundreds of similar cases but they always told each individual that there were no other reports of problems. That was a lie and cruel. They also, in some cases, found zero evidence of fraud, but because the computer system said there was an imbalance, they told the postmaster that there was evidence of fraud in order to get them to accept the plea bargain where they pleaded guilty to false accounting but not too theft. This was downright evil. They acted like a corrupt police force (and they have police powers, they pushed the prosecutions not the police). And you're right, it was tens or hundreds of middle management types who only care about their next promotion and a pay rise based on their "performance", ie nicking innocent postmasters. And to use a very old worn out cliche, they really are the same sort of people who would have stood at Nuremberg and said "look I was just following orders like everyone else"...

As I very carefully said, I have complete sympathy with the case but it's a lie to say that "700 were scammed out of their life savings," and that "most lost their homes." 700 weren’t scammed out of their life savings and most didn’t lose their homes.

Don’t ruin the case by exageration or comparing post offices to Belsen. It destroys credibility.

The post office didn’t have police powers. These are civil cases, created by dull clerks in middle management, and taken to court by lawyers, defended by lawyers, and judged by local magistrates, the likes of you or I, who looked at the evidence and said “here’s the judgement.”

 

[oldguy57]

I've followed this for years (well, 5+).
I've mentioned this to countless friends and colleagues and family. Whilst I've been totally outraged at what appears to be (or should be) criminal behaviour of the coverup all along and have written to my scumbag self-promoting gravy train riding MP, everyone I've mentioned it to has, to give a suitable anology, yawned and taken the position of (i) asking why do I care when it doesn't directly impact me and (ii) almost seemed offended that I even introduced such a boring conversation point that in no way benefits them personally.

I think this sums up a majority view in society, so no wonder this sort of thing doesn't gain any traction except for the short period of time it is shoved in their mainstream content consuming faces.

Therein lies the problem- most don't take notice until it appears on the telly, simply because it doesn't affect them. In the meanwhile large corporations continue to misbehave in ways that make your eyes water. When these activities affect the previously unaffected they are the first to whine like hell.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Funnily enough my dad was a Building Society manager and way back then if a till didn't add up he had to send the person responsible to collect money or give it back to the customer at home. I'm guessing that staff soon learned to be extra careful.

Honestly, did you believe that?

How do you think they worked out who the money came from if the till was “over?”

And what makes you think that Building Society clerks were such paragons of virtue that they would always declare an “over?”

 

[oldguy57]

Honestly, did you believe that?

How do you think they worked out who the money came from if the till was “over?”

And what makes you think that Building Society clerks were such paragons of virtue that they would always declare an “over?”

Because my father had to personally balance every till at the end of every day. Each till was allocated to a staff member and any under or over could be traced to that staff member. Most staff had worked at the same branch for decades and you have to remember that this was the 50's and 60's when things were completely different. Very little mechanisation involved so no problems with the likes of "computer says" rowlocks.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

It gets even murkier.

Gillian Keegan's (Education Secretary) husband was the CEO of Fujitsu at the time of all this.

It's a small club ... and we ain't in it.

It takes two minutes to disprove purely political false claims like this. Michael Keegan, who has a PhD in War Studies was not CEO of Fujitsu during this time.

But he was a “director” of a part of Fujitsu. Fujitsu is a huge IT company that’s done £7 billion worth of Systems work for the Government this over the last two decades.

Now, ask whether Michael might have been consulted on a £20 million MoD IT contract and he’ll say “Chinese Walls” but then he would say that, wouldn’t he?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Because my father had to personally balance every till at the end of every day. Each till was allocated to a staff member and any under or over could be traced to that staff member. Most staff had worked at the same branch for decades and you have to remember that this was the 50's and 60's when things were completely different. Very little mechanisation involved so no problems with the likes of "computer says" rowlocks.

Once again, How do you think they worked out who the money came from if the till was “over?”

You’ve given someone a tenner less than you should have. How do you know who it was? Someone’s given you a bag of half crowns which you’ve not recorded. Who was it?

 

[oldguy57]

Once again, How do you think they worked out who the money came from if the till was “over?”

You’ve given someone a tenner less than you should have. How do you know who it was? Someone’s given you a bag of half crowns which you’ve not recorded. Who was it?

Why are you asking me - I was never a Building Society manager. Every transaction was hand written recorded. It took 3 hours at the end of each day to reconcile the tills, so some system must have been in place to identify errors.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Has anyone been watching The Crown?

Isn’t it horrifying to see how The Royal Family treated poor Diana?

 

[Swotty]

It takes two minutes to disprove purely political false claims like this. Michael Keegan, who has a PhD in War Studies was not CEO of Fujitsu during this time.

But he was a “director” of a part of Fujitsu. Fujitsu is a huge IT company that’s done £7 billion worth of Systems work for the Government this over the last two decades.

Now, ask whether Michael might have been consulted on a £20 million MoD IT contract and he’ll say “Chinese Walls” but then he would say that, wouldn’t he?

That'll teach me to believe everything I read in the Grauniad!

Explained better here, as you say. Wonder if there was any connection between his IT work at the PO and his subsequent appointment by Fujitsu.

Fujitsu appoints Michael Keegan as head of UK and Ireland - Business & Finance

Fujitsu today announced it has appointed Michael Keegan as head of its £1.8bn business in the UK and Ireland. Keegan’s new role sees him take the reins from Duncan Tait, who was recently promoted to head of EMEIA, corporate senior vice president, Fujitsu Ltd. Keegan has worked at Fujitsu for a...

businessandfinance.com

IT boss overseeing Post Office now in Whitehall

Michael Keegan is employed as a crown representative overseeing the Government's relationships with some of its biggest suppliers

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Why are you asking me - I was never a Building Society manager. Every transaction was hand written recorded. It took 3 hours at the end of each day to reconcile the tills, so some system must have been in place to identify errors.

Because you said “my father had to personally balance every till at the end of every day. Each till was allocated to a staff member and any under or over could be traced to that staff member. Most staff had worked at the same branch for decades and you have to remember that this was the 50's and 60's when things were completely different.”

Think about it, if it’s a casual mistake you often can’t track the cause. If it’s a deliberate action, again you can’t track it.

It was three hours to tidy up 6-7 hours worth of transactions but errors are routine.

 

[st13phil]

These are civil cases, created by dull clerks in middle management, and taken to court by lawyers, defended by lawyers, and judged by local magistrates, the likes of you or I, who looked at the evidence and said “here’s the judgement.”

I could be wrong, but my understanding was that they were actually criminal prosecutions, made under powers vested in the Post Office?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

That'll teach me to believe everything I read in the Grauniad!

Explained better here, as you say. Wonder if there was any connection between his IT work at the PO and his subsequent appointment by Fujitsu.

Fujitsu appoints Michael Keegan as head of UK and Ireland - Business & Finance

Fujitsu today announced it has appointed Michael Keegan as head of its £1.8bn business in the UK and Ireland. Keegan’s new role sees him take the reins from Duncan Tait, who was recently promoted to head of EMEIA, corporate senior vice president, Fujitsu Ltd. Keegan has worked at Fujitsu for a...

businessandfinance.com

IT boss overseeing Post Office now in Whitehall

Michael Keegan is employed as a crown representative overseeing the Government's relationships with some of its biggest suppliers

www.telegraph.co.uk

Exactly. The lossses and prosecutions occurred in the decade following the Horizon implementation in 1999, and were over by 2014 when Keegan appears to have been given that CEO role for just 14 months.

(Strangely Keegan’s CEO role isn’t recorded at Companies House. Apologies about that - I expected Keegan’s role to be obvious at Companies House.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I could be wrong, but my understanding was that they were actually criminal prosecutions, made under powers vested in the Post Office?

I keep seeing that these were all civil cases initiated by the Post Office

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

it was tens or hundreds of middle management types who only care about their next promotion and a pay rise based on their "performance", ie nicking innocent postmasters. And to use a very old worn out cliche, they really are the same sort of people who would have stood at Nuremberg and said "look I was just following orders like everyone else"...

It was a truly awful situation to be in for everyone caught up in this, an d especially the Post Masters.

Those middle managers are just ordinary people too. Unless you know otherwise, then the Post Office didn’t purposefully recruit, promote and incentivise their middle management to be “downright evil”, and so it’s within us all to do whatever was done or not done, and your comments are a reflection of you and I just as much as it was those middle managers.

There is always an exception to prove the rule, and middle management will have been working hard and trying to do the right thing.

 

[SpikyMikey]

Last night Mrs S and myself binge-watched the complete Mr Bates vs The Post Office.
Irrespective of the backstory, we found it a compelling, moving, well-written and played piece of TV.

 

[m80]

There is always an exception to prove the rule, and middle management will have been working hard and trying to do the right thing.

The evidence suggests no one in the P.O. was trying to do this.

I can understand that there was a belief in the Horizon system, initially.
And that on installation it was perceived that it had done the job and uncovered wrong doings by the Subbies.

But soon enough there were signs that it was faulty.
That was followed by lies to support the incorrect policy of the P.O. Fear to admit their own wrongs in my view.

They might well have looked at the Horizon system more closely, tested it at some of these Post Office that were showing these discrepancies.
Jujitsu of course will have continued to disguise the failings so interrogation of the centre that had back door access to the Subbies accounts was essential.

Instead Jujitsu were allowed to 'play' with any accounts they wished, very questionable.
And the P.O. put big boots on to go into battle as a Mafia against the individual villagers.

The P.O., or employers at various levels within, knew that many prosecutions were persecutions, and carried on regardless.
This isn't trying to do the right thing.

 

[st13phil]

I keep seeing that these were all civil cases initiated by the Post Office

AFAIK, a civil case can't result in imprisonment. It has to be a criminal case for that sanction to be applied.

I think the confusion arises because they were private criminal prosecutions brought by the Post Office who - through historical means - retained investigative and prosecution powers even after it became a private company. There's a good explanation of the situation here, which includes commentary on the hazards that allowing an organisation to act as a prosecutor when it is also the victim and the investigator of an alleged offence represents.

Another issue with private prosecutions is that the "Public Interest" test that is applied in the case of state prosecutions is not made. However, as others better versed in the law than me have pointed out, under section 6(2) of the Prosecution of Offences Act (POA) 1985 the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) has power to take over private prosecutions, either to continue the prosecution or to discontinue or stop it.

Bearing in mind the growing concern at the time that at least some of the PO's prosecutions of sub-postmasters appeared to be "suspect", this rather brings into question the line that so many politicians have taken that "there was nothing we could do" to intervene.

 

[Harrythedog]

What is puzzling me, is the fact that those involved are being offered £600,000 OR £163,000 if they intend to pursue the PO!

To me that is a Bribe and In Public.

There will also be income tax to pay on the loss of earnings part, also some had been declared bankrupt so there’ll be costs involved there.
I’ve no doubt the the convictions will be overturned quite quickly but the actual compensation will drag on for years, I can hear the barristers rubbing their hands from here.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Bearing in mind the growing concern at the time that at least some of the PO's prosecutions of sub-postmasters appeared to be "suspect", this rather brings into question the line that so many politicians have taken that "there was nothing we could do" to intervene.

Aren’t all legal cases “suspect?” Innocent until guilty?

Two sets of lawyers make the case and then the magistrate or judge determines an outcome?

The legal system has an appeal process if that decision is to be challenged.

Which is how we’re now in the fourth year of a massively expensive public enquiry into an IT system what was implemented 25 years ago.