Anyone watch Mr Bates vs The Post Office ?

[MikeInWimbledon]

Perhaps.
But as stated, the PO do have powers akin to the police and CPS - they prosecute with expensive lawyers and tech experts and if you're in a very modest position then pleading guilty to false accounting rather than theft (on the promise of probably not going to prison) seemed attractive to some. Also, if you as a sub postmaster were to loose your case you'd have 100s thousands of costs... big gamble for some who just wanted to move on and start again. Dreadful choice.

Not my circus, not my monkeys, but are you sure that Post Masters were / are not eligible for Legal Support?

If our local drugs dealers get Legal Support, why not our local Post Master?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Guilty until proven innocent?

Just well aware that any cash handling business, accountant and taxman doesn't "assume" that people operating on their own, without supervision, cannot be tempted to take cash from turnover. That's why the accounting and records systems are there in the first place.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Sorry to have to say this but the insistence that more do than don't have their hands in the till wherever the opportunity arises smacks of the same mindset that set the PO down its disastrous path. Is this not what we call 'groupthink'? Or merely cynicism? Or projection?

To my mind any that did have their hands in the till are far too few to prevent a wholesale exoneration of the 700. Time here, is of the essence (I saw the real Mr (Alan) Bates interviewed and he reckons 70 of them have died already). Justice for the remaining ones before it is too late is paramount.

Who's insisting that more have "their hands in the till" than don't ?

But you have a good point: sub-postmasters who were in their 50's more than two decades ago, will be getting old. It's 25 years since this system was thrown into place before Y2k. We're in the fourth year of a very expensive public enquiry.

This has been very good revenue for lawyers but not fair justice for either side of this conflict. (And it's unlikely that all were guilty or incompetent - on both sides.)

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

No, I did not say they were capable of war crimes,

For someone not implying that the hundreds of people from the Post Office middle management are capable of war crimes and attrocities, you don’t have make it look like you are. You just did it again!

I know people seem to think the sorts of people who became Nazis landed from outer space or were a peculiar anomaly of Germany c1939. Obviously they did not come from Mars and it wasn't because Germans are uniquely susceptible to evil, these people are everywhere, and in the right environment (absolute power over someone else and not wanting to be seen as a trouble maker in the organisation) their unpleasant nature emerges.

For completeness, here’s the last time you did but didn’t, just a few hours ago.

they really are the same sort of people who would have stood at Nuremberg and said "look I was just following orders like everyone else"...

If you didn’t mean Post Office middle management were capable of war crimes and attrocities, then what did you mean by saying that they were the same as people who stood at Nuremberg and said “I was just following orders”?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

No I would not turn a blind eye to people being put in prison in order not to rock the boat for money (whether I was a middle manager or the COE)

Nor would I. You and I aren’t special though, most people wouldn’t, and those hundreds of Post Office middle managers are most people, just like you and I.

 

[HB]

We as a family are right in the middle of this with the PO. It was one of the businesses our family owned.

I cannot begin to tell you the hurdles and heartache the PO have put us through over the last 20 years - it’s actually unforgivable.

They accused us of stealing an amount less than the cost of servicing an E63 at the dealer. The post office was closed and many people lost their jobs.

There is not enough space in the internet for me to go on about it.

I have spoken to the majority of people you may have seen on TV/Twitter etc and a lot of them are broken both financially and mentally.

The debates of right and wrong can continue here but I will say one thing. The overwhelming majority of sub postmasters are real salt of the earth people who would not touch the crowns money. They were literally pillars of their communities and held the trust of many many in those communities. Episode 1 of the drama showed where Jo kept a pensioner’s payment book in the PO so the lady wouldn’t lose it. That is pure trust.

This was usual practice along with other tasks such as explaining personal forms, filling in other forms for those who couldn’t read or write (very common) and the list could go on.

“The behaviour of the executives” as one of you put is to blame entirely.

I could go on and on and on.

 

[190]

Up until a few years ago my wife had worked in a rural post office for 20 years. Fortunately it was so small they were amongst the last to get put on the Horizon system so perhaps she missed the worst of the early years of Horizon's introduction. Once they did get Horizon there were no major problems but the at the end of each day the till NEVER balanced and still doesn't. The amounts are small enough not to attract a prosecution but it suggests the Horizon system is still not perfect.

Fujitsu sounds like a 2nd rate company that only survives on government contracts both here and in Japan They seem a good match for a 2nd rate company like our Post Office so the fact Horizon was a poor implementation is no great surprise. Fujitsu have some history on producing faulty systems elsewhere.

So the blame starts with Fujitsu and ends with a lot of overly self important Post Office managers. If you were to ask any staff working in a post office what central management is like, expect to get a withering response.

https://archive.ph/7tlkp

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

If you were to ask any staff working in a post office what central management is like, expect to get a withering response.

It’s tragic that it has affected so many people, so badly, and I’m glad to hear that your wife hasn’t been one of them.

What you’ve said about staff in the Post Office is equally true of many large organisations - generally comments about “management” or “head office” tend to be relatively negative, regardless of whether management/HO are shockingly bad or surprisingly good.

It’s just a human reaction to authority, especially authority which is more than one step removed from the individual.

 

[Flyinspanner]

So Vennalls is to hand back her CBE…… GOOD, it’s taken her long enough.

Bet she won’t hand back the golden handshake to help balance the books though. (£5m)

Maybe change the name to Venal?

I’m glad the police are investigating the fraudulent cases brought against innocent postmasters. Bearing false witness, perjury, withholding evidence, are all serious crimes.

Im disappointed (but not surprised) by some comments from members on here, still throwing shade, suggesting that people probably accepted charges ‘as they’d probably been skimming’ - that’s frankly just spiteful & hateful.

They probably accepted because they’d been lied to re “we have proof”, - they they were mortified that they had maybe made mistakes (you are the only one in this position) . And that they were lied to that it would end there - they wanted to save face, walk away, unaware that they were walking into a trap with a prison door clanking shut behind them.

 

[m80]

Corporate neglect toward safety can result in a charge of corporate manslaughter.
I don't see P.O. employees as neglectful, but worse. Their actions were intentionally harassing of individuals over 700 of them. The expectation of suicide could be foreseen.
Isn't that manslaughter (corporatwise and individually)?

 

[philnewmerc]

For someone not implying that the hundreds of people from the Post Office middle management are capable of war crimes and attrocities, you don’t have make it look like you are. You just did it again!



For completeness, here’s the last time you did but didn’t, just a few hours ago.

If you didn’t mean Post Office middle management were capable of war crimes and attrocities, then what did you mean by saying that they were the same as people who stood at Nuremberg and said “I was just following orders”?

If you still don't think any profoundly
immoral decisions were taken after watching the documentary and/or docudrama on itv then I assure you we're very different people.

My nazi comment (which i myself described as a tired cliché btw) was about the perpetrators of wicked acts being as banal as they have always been and the reasons similar. If you want to disseminate it fill yer boots, personally I think it is self explanatory.

Many people not seeing, or refusing to see, that this is probably the biggest ever miscarriage of justice, resulting in 100s of malicious prosecutions, and at least 4 suicides, is part of the reason it's dragged on so unbelievably long with the majority still not exonerated. The PO having police/CPS type powers was a disaster in the hands of hyper competitive people happy to let people hang in order to get their bonuses.

 

[philnewmerc]

Not my circus, not my monkeys, but are you sure that Post Masters were / are not eligible for Legal Support?

If our local drugs dealers get Legal Support, why not our local Post Master?

With respect, have you seen the documentary or docudrama? It would explain all this.

 

[philnewmerc]

Nor would I. You and I aren’t special though, most people wouldn’t, and those hundreds of Post Office middle managers are most people, just like you and I.

I think you would benefit from watching the documentary or docudrama. This is not a cockup as you wish to believe, it is a conspiracy. And I say that as an avid anti conspiracy pro cockup kind of chap! Just listen and watch the evidence, then get back to us

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

With respect, have you seen the documentary or docudrama? It would explain all this.

I’ve only been following this for the last decade or so. It’s been well covered in the Computing and Financial press. What was it the Times said? “We’ve done 200 articles on the Post Office and no-one’s been interested. Now they do one play and everyone’s all over this.”

That’s how I knew that 700 Postmasters hadn’t ALL lost their homes and their entire life savings following the installation of 20,000 Horizon terminals 25 years ago. Some did but not 700.

And that’s how I knew that the Post Office were encouraging Postmasters to come forward and pick up those substantial compensation payments last Summer. 2,000 Postmasters had picked up £100 million by then, but the most serious cases were mired in admin.

I will take time out to watch Toby Jones. He’s a great actor who I met a few times through his dad. How do you identify the fictionalised dialogue and story lines within the play?

Any thoughts on Debicki and The Crown? Should there be an Enquiry or an Apology from the Royal Family following her Golden Globe winning performance? It’s appalling what they did to her.

 

[m80]

I’ve only been following this for the last decade or so. It’s been well covered in the Computing and Financial press. What was it the Times said? “We’ve done 200 articles on the Post Office and no-one’s been interested. Now they do one play and everyone’s all over this.”

That’s how I knew that 700 Postmasters hadn’t ALL lost their homes and their entire life savings following the installation of 20,000 Horizon terminals 25 years ago. Some did but not 700.

And that’s how I knew that the Post Office were encouraging Postmasters to come forward and pick up those substantial compensation payments last Summer.

I will take time out to watch Toby Jones. He’s a great actor who I met a few times through his dad. How do you identify the fictionalised dialogue and story lines within the play?

Any thoughts on Debicki and The Crown? Should there be an Enquiry or an Apology from the Royal Family following her Golden Globe winning performance? It’s appalling what they did to her.

Mike, much respect, but why the obvious distraction.

Are you a politician?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Mike, much respect, but why the obvious distraction.

Are you a politician?

To point out that fiction isn’t fact.

And that this issue has been in the public eye for more than a decade.

And that a lot of people are deliberately misquoting stats for dramatic effect. (Comparing dull Accountants to Belsen guards etc)

To answer your second question: I’ve installed a lot of complex accounting systems. But nothing as big as Horizon: 20,000 terminals, the biggest non-military IT system installation project in Europe.

In my spare time, as a hobby, I watch out for cash fiddles. I have a small background interest in Fraud and Anti-Money Laundering.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

If you still don't think any profoundly
immoral decisions were taken after watching the documentary and/or docudrama on itv then I assure you we're very different people.

On the contrary, I believe that there were poor decisions made, and the tragic consequences for some of those accused could and should have been anticipated.

That doesn’t mean that hundreds of Post Office middle management were evil nor should be accused of being capable of war crimes and attrocities.

 

[oldguy57]

I keep seeing that these were all civil cases initiated by the Post Office

Some were some were CPS.

 

[oldguy57]

More info is coming out as you would expect. The designer of the IT system is insisting on immunity from prosecution before he will appear as a witness at the public enquiry. (you can't do this anyway). So perhaps something to hide eh? PO has suddenly dumped thousands of documents at the enquiry on 2 occasions and shortly before the enquiry was due to start causing postponement twice. Tactics or am I too cynical?