Beware Driving Automation

[st13phil]

On the face of it - the driver's statement that he was using Autopilot at the time of the crash hasn't been corroborated - this is a salutary, and tragic, lesson why relying on humans to monitor automated driving systems is a very dangerous practice:

Tesla driver in Seattle-area crash that killed motorcyclist told police he was using Autopilot

A Tesla that may have been operating on the company’s Autopilot driving system has hit and killed a motorcyclist near Seattle.

apnews.com

Interesting also that the push from the regulator is to use more automation to monitor the driver to ensure that the driver is monitoring the driving automation...

 

[markjay]

"the driver of a 2022 Tesla Model S told a Washington State Patrol trooper that he was using Autopilot and looked at his cellphone while the Tesla was moving."

I have nothing to add.................

 

[markjay]

BTW, on my Hyundai, as per European regulations, if I take my hands off the steering wheel for more than 10 seconds while the car is on autopilot, an alarm sounds, and if I ignore it then the autopilot will disengage itself.

 

[st13phil]

BTW, on my Hyundai, as per European regulations, if I take my hands off the steering wheel for more than 10 seconds while the car is on autopilot, an alarm sounds, and if I ignore it then the autopilot will disengage itself.

The Active Lane Keeping Assist and Distronic Plus were the same on my W212 E63's.

"the driver of a 2022 Tesla Model S told a Washington State Patrol trooper that he was using Autopilot and looked at his cellphone while the Tesla was moving."

I have nothing to add.................

That was my point: humans are unreliable monitors of automation. So when - for whatever reason - the automation fails to act appropriately, the human "backstop" that was supposed to be ensuring safety in the event of an automation failure is not paying attention and carnage ensues.

 

[GeeJayW]

Must be great to sit holding a steering wheel for hours just so you can be the patsy when computer says ‘no’.

Edit - How reasonable is it to expect someone to be fully engaged in a process from which automation has disengaged them? It’s ludicrous in my opinion and is the Achilles heal of the self drive concept. I’m either the driver or I’m not.

 

[markjay]

Must be great to sit holding a steering wheel for hours just so you can be the patsy when computer says ‘no’.

Edit - How reasonable is it to expect someone to be fully engaged in a process from which automation has disengaged them? It’s ludicrous in my opinion and is the Achilles heal of the self drive concept. I’m either the driver or I’m not.

I find that it actually works quite well.

Firstly, the computer doesn't override the human driver. As soon as I make any steering input (say I decided to switch lane), the steering wheel disengages and relinquishes control, until my steering inputs are once again aligned with the computer, and auto-steering is resumed.

Then, I am 100% focused on what the car is doing. I am keeping both hands on the steering wheel, watching the road ahead, and monitoring the car's speed. But when I arrive at my destination, surprisingly I feel much less tired than when driving 'manually'. Somehow, actively and constantly monitoring the car is somehow less taxing mentally than actually driving it all the way, especially on long motorway runs.

 

[GeeJayW]

I find that it actually works quite well.

Firstly, the computer doesn't override the human driver. As soon as I make any steering input (say I decided to switch lane), the steering wheel disengages and relinquishes control, until my steering inputs are once again aligned with the computer, and auto-steering is resumed.

Then, I am 100% focused on what the car is doing. I am keeping both hands on the steering wheel, watching the road ahead, and monitoring the car's speed. But when I arrive at my destination, surprisingly I feel much less tired than when driving 'manually'. Somehow, actively and constantly monitoring the car is somehow less taxing mentally than actually driving it all the way, especially on long motorway runs.

I am a bad passenger and am not even slightly comfortable with reliance on automation for driving. Whilst you may find that it works, it really would not for me.

Our Tiguan has adaptive cruise and lane assist, auto stop/start, auto hold and auto headlights beam adjust. I find these systems to be intrusive and irritating. They are systems that clever people come up with when they have nothing better to do and are fearful that they will be out of a job if they can’t come up with something to keep the marketers happy. MVMS


(Yep, fully subscribed member of the Victor Meldrew Society)

 

[markjay]

I am a bad passenger and am not even slightly comfortable with reliance on automation for driving. Whilst you may find that it works, it really would not for me.

Our Tiguan has adaptive cruise and lane assist, auto stop/start, auto hold and auto headlights beam adjust. I find these systems to be intrusive and irritating. They are systems that clever people come up with when they have nothing better to do and are fearful that they will be out of a job if they can’t come up with something to keep the marketers happy. MVMS


(Yep, fully subscribed member of the Victor Meldrew Society)

Initially, I had a difficulty in 'relinquishing control', but I convinced myself that this is the shape of thongs to come, and pretty much forced myself to trust the car.

I am now well-familiar with the car's behaviour, its strengths and weaknesses, and I know when to use the autopilot (on motorways) and when not to (everywhere else).

Having said that, different car manufacturers have different ways of implementing autopilot, and some are bound to be better than others.

 

[GeeJayW]

Initially, I had a difficulty in 'relinquishing control', but I convinced myself that this is the shape of thongs to come, and pretty much forced myself to trust the car.

I am now well-familiar with the car's behaviour, its strengths and weaknesses, and I know when to use the autopilot (on motorways) and when not to (everywhere else).

Having said that, different car manufacturers have different ways of implementing autopilot, and some are bound to be better than others.

Glad that it works for you and, that you’re happy and fully ready to assume control if/when for whatever reason the technology doesn’t work.

 

[TrueSpirit]

What a tragedy, it's possible the driver was using his phone without the autopilot and had to cover his a££


I never had a huge amount of confidence in these systems . That being said, quite a few thousand miles were put on my 2018 c class using distronic but I'd always be making sure the damn thing stayed on.it was an excellent system and when I got rid of that car I sorely missed that system and still do now. It would even adapt to people cutting into my lane. Really useful system if you're doing 600 miles in a day but you do need to keep your eyes on the road at all times. Things change significantly in a second or 2 on the motorway

 

[markjay]

Looking away from the road while the car is on autopilot makes as much sense as deliberately crashing the car into a wall because it is equipped with air bags.

Of course I trust both the airbags and the autopilot, I also trust the reverse camera and parking sensors and blind spot assist, they are all great safery aids, but that's all they are - aids.

 

[markjay]

BTW, my understanding is that the London Underground trains are fully automated. The train drivers simply monitor the computer. Anyone can confirm that?

 

[DSM10000]

My autopilot is blonde, approx 1m 65cm and also incorporates Sat Nag

 

[clk320x]

Another click-bait headline.

Autopilot is incredibly safe but it’s still a ‘beta’ and you should still be paying attention to the road.

 

[Ted]

I love technology, but can’t get on with the adaptive cruise control plus or the lane keep assist plus on the CH-R.
Adaptive cc - brilliant. Actually makes cc useful especially in busier traffic. But the plus works down to 0mph and then pulls away again. The last few mph you are really keeping your eyes on it and hovering above the brake pedal. Also if you are in stop start traffic on the motorway there is often someone trying to push into your lane and I would much rather be in control of allowing or not allowing people in.
The lane keep assist (not lane departure assist) I just find annoying as you keep feeling the wheel being tugged slightly into what the electronics thinks is the best lane position.
So I’ve turned lane keep assist off, and lane departure assist as I’ve never had any need for that, and I take over from adaptive cc in very heavy traffic.
And now a mention for blind spot monitoring. Absolutely don’t need it, I thought. Over 50 years of riding motorbikes means that I always look over my shoulder as well as using the mirrors when making a manoeuvre. I still do but bsm just gives you that extra confidence especially when joining a lane on the near side or pulling back in to a near side lane after an overtake.

 

[st13phil]

Autopilot is incredibly safe but it’s still a ‘beta’ and you should still be paying attention to the road.

The article I linked was posted on a motorcycle forum I frequent that is very US-centric.

One of the posters on that thread commented that the latest instance of Tesla’s Autopilot is solely vision-based, vs the earlier version that used vision and radar. Can you comment on the veracity of that?

 

[clk320x]

The article was posted on a motorcycle forum I frequent that is very US-centric.

One of the posters on that thread commented that the latest instance of Tesla’s Autopilot is solely vision-based, vs the earlier version that used vision and radar. Can you comment on the veracity of that?

Yeah that’s correct.

It’s called ‘Tesla Vision’ now. To be fair, I’ve used both types of Autopilot and haven’t noticed Vision only being worse.

Their approach uses AI to interpret the images similarly to the human brain, and obviously it can do so at a superior speed. Tesla AI Process Driving Images 10X Faster Than Humans | NextBigFuture.com

If anything, I’ve found Autopilot to be overly cautious in some circumstances. It’s always sad to hear when there has been a fatal accident, but it’s important to know that mile per mile covered statistically AP is safer than unaided driving when used correctly.

It’s incredibly useful on long motorway drives, despite having to still ‘pay attention’ it makes life a lot easier.

Worth a watch… incredible technology. Which will only get better and better.

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[SpikyMikey]

Initially, I had a difficulty in 'relinquishing control', but I convinced myself that this is the shape of thongs to come

 

[Dippo]

BTW, my understanding is that the London Underground trains are fully automated. The train drivers simply monitor the computer. Anyone can confirm that?

From various sources:

"The Victoria, Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and the Metropolitan are partly automated. This means an operator is still required to open and close doors and to assist in the event of an emergency."

 

[TC350]

From various sources:

"The Victoria, Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and the Metropolitan are partly automated. This means an operator is still required to open and close doors and to assist in the event of an emergency."

They have to do something to justify their £65k salary!