Beware Driving Automation

[markjay]

12% more road accidents forecast by 2029.

Is there also a forecast without AP tech? Would be horrific, I should think.

 

[TC350]

Out of interest, when using cruise control, do MBClubbers keep their foot on the accelerator pedal (without applying pressure) or do you move your foot to a completely different position?

Rarely if ever over the accelerator pedal. Usually on the floor but will hover over the brake pedal when there’s a potential hazard ahead - but even then I’ll mostly flick off the cruise while depressing the throttle the required amount. So basically it depends very much on the situation, of which there are very many variables.

 

[grober]

In the event of a fully automated car safety system performance "anomaly" causing a fatal accident who is held legally responsible. the car manufacturer or the driver?
Fujitsu and the jailed Post Office workers fiasco might give a clue?????

 

[markjay]

Out of interest, when using cruise control, do MBClubbers keep their foot on the accelerator pedal (without applying pressure) or do you move your foot to a completely different position?

Right foot's heel on the mat, toes hovering above pedal level in readiness to hit the brakes if necessary (and, touching the brake pedal will also disengage the driving automation). Have been doing this since the early days of cruise control, in fact.

 

[st13phil]

Yeah that’s correct.

It’s called ‘Tesla Vision’ now. To be fair, I’ve used both types of Autopilot and haven’t noticed Vision only being worse.

Thanks for the confirmation.

I don’t have a source of any published research, but much of the conversation in the thread I took the original article link from (all American participants) is around how the different automotive driving assistance systems - not just Tesla's Autopilot - are unreliable in their detection of motorcycles. Certainly Mercedes-Benz included a specific warning that Distronic Plus may not accurately detect small vehicles such as motorcycles in the manual of my E63, although I never experienced it failing to detect motorcycles even in situations I suspected it would. There is further discussion in the thread that Tesla's vision + radar version of Autopilot was better in this respect than the vision-only implementation. I'd be interested to hear if you have any relevant experience of using the two versions of Autopilot around motorcycles?

Clearly the responsibility for driving safely resides with the driver of the vehicle, but I do get the impression that many users are unaware of the limitations of the various driving assistance systems. Stemming from that lack of awareness there are a subset of gullible users who are seduced by terms such as “Autopilot” and erroneously think they can delegate driving to the assistance systems with potentially terrible consequences.

 

[st13phil]

In the event of a fully automated car safety system performance "anomaly" causing a fatal accident who is held legally responsible. the car manufacturer or the driver?

The UK's Automated Vehicles Bill places responsibility on the vehicle manufacturer for any event that occurs when the vehicle is being used in automated driving mode:

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9973

 

[SpikyMikey]

Right foot's heel on the mat, toes hovering above pedal level in readiness to hit the brakes if necessary (and, touching the brake pedal will also disengage the driving automation). Have been doing this since the early days of cruise control, in fact.

Pretty much the same here; although the roads I regularly travel are generally too busy to engage cruise, without constantly having to cancel and re-engage it. My BIL on the other hand uses it all the time and is constantly up and down on the '+' and '-' steering wheel buttons. It just seems easier to drive without it to me.

 

[TC350]

Pretty much the same here; although the roads I regularly travel are generally too busy to engage cruise, without constantly having to cancel and re-engage it. My BIL on the other hand uses it all the time and is constantly up and down on the '+' and '-' steering wheel buttons. It just seems easier to drive without it to me.

I use cruise quite a lot. It’s great for driving around the development where I live that is a 20mph zone. It also highlights all the people who aren’t using it. The number of times I move out a lane to pass a slower vehicle, only for it to speed up just as I draw level.

But I do wonder how many of these “safety aids” become accepted as the only thing that’s needed. With things like ‘blind spot assist’ beeping at you, are drivers no longer bothering to look?

 

[st13phil]

But I do wonder how many of these “safety aids” become accepted as the only thing that’s needed. With things like ‘blind spot assist’ beeping at you, are drivers no longer bothering to look?

I remember similar discussions around ABS braking, when in the initial honeymoon period lots of people seemed to forget to use their own judgment regarding braking and were relying on ABS to get them out of a sticky mess when they were pushing the envelope. Once they learned that ABS has its limitations, they mostly reverted to driving as though ABS wasn't present.

Hopefully, once the novelty wears off, drivers will become accustomed to using the wider scope driver assistance systems as they are intended - i.e. as an aid to safe driving - rather than as an opportunity to delegate their responsibility for the safety of themselves and other road users to the assistance automation. Unfortunately, there will always be a minority who become over-reliant upon them and use them as a justification for inattention which is where the manufacturer's and legislators have a responsibility to include (and perhaps mandate?) driver attention monitoring as part of the package.

 

[markjay]

I remember similar discussions around ABS braking, when in the initial honeymoon period lots of people seemed to forget to use their own judgment regarding braking and were relying on ABS to get them out of a sticky mess when they were pushing the envelope. Once they learned that ABS has its limitations, they mostly reverted to driving as though ABS wasn't present...

The first car I drove with ABS was a 2.9L Ford Scorpio. I had to keep reminding myself that there's no point in pumping the brakes, the car will do it for you. But to this day - some 30 years later - I still find myself pumping the brakes on occasion....

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

That is not what is forecast. +12% in the US is not an improvement.

How would you describe the credibility of the sources of the data and what are the reasons for the significant increase?

 

[markjay]

Are people driving without due care and attention since cars started having seatbelts, ABS, ESP, and airbags? I suppose some do, but they're pillocks. Same applies to any of the more modern driver aids.

 

[ChipChop]

How would you describe the credibility of the sources of the data and what are the reasons for the significant increase?

Statista.com are a credible source as far as i am aware. Specific reasons for the continual increase in the number of road accidents for the last 10 years (2014-to date) in the US are not offered. Likewise no reasons are given for the forecast road accident rate trend continuing its upward path (+12%) to 2029.

 

[markjay]

Statista.com are a credible source as far as i am aware. Specific reasons for the continual increase in the number of road accidents for the last 10 years (2014-to date) in the US are not offered. Likewise no reasons are given for the forecast road accident rate upward trend continuing its upward path (+12%) to 2029.

Interesting - but what is the relevance to AP tech?

It's a linear, unexplained statistical prediction. There's no way of knowing if AP tech kept the figure at bay (i.e. it would have been much worse without it), made things worse, or had no effect whatsoever.

 

[markjay]

But I think that I can see the point about the risk of drivers relying on driver aids and not paying attention to the road.... I mean, at some point in the middle of the previous century we thought it would be a good idea to provide a safety net for people who can't find work, and we called it 'Social Welfare Benefits' - but some people misunderstood it to say that it meant that they no longer needed to work... ever.

 

[GeeJayW]

All this ‘AI’ systems are safer than a human driver is a distraction from the real issue in play here, and that is liability. On the (rare) occasion that the otherwise amazingly safe and reliable AI driver is unable to cope/fails, it’s the human ‘driver’ that gets the blame for not paying attention. Might as well blame one of the other passengers.

AI is safe until it isn’t.

The OEMs are desperate to avoid picking up liability for the failures of AI, because they could well get hammered in the courts.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Autonomous driving will really come into its own when the majority of cars are equipped with the technology, enabling connected collective intelligence - together there will be more data points, and much more predictability.

The thing that often catches out an autonomous car is an unpredictable human, exactly the same thing that often catches out other human drivers.!Removing humans from the equation will significantly improve safety.

Unless robots take over the world - and not just the driving - and then we’re doomed. We’ll probably be farmed by the robots so that they can harvest our life force, or if the market for life force is limited then maybe they will harvest our hair.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Statista.com are a credible source as far as i am aware. Specific reasons for the continual increase in the number of road accidents for the last 10 years (2014-to date) in the US are not offered. Likewise no reasons are given for the forecast road accident rate trend continuing its upward path (+12%) to 2029.

So Statista’s sources are not specified, and there’s no insight provided as to why accident rates will increase. It doesn’t sound particularly credible. If I told you that accidents would decrease by 7% between now and 2027 would you believe me if I didn’t provide any information about either the source or the reason for that projection?

 

[markjay]

Autonomous driving will really come into its own when the majority of cars are equipped with the technology, enabling connected collective intelligence - together there will be more data points, and much more predictability.

The thing that often catches out an autonomous car is an unpredictable human, exactly the same thing that often catches out other human drivers.!Removing humans from the equation will significantly improve safety.

Unless robots take over the world - and not just the driving - and then we’re doomed. We’ll probably be farmed by the robots so that they can harvest our life force, or if the market for life force is limited then maybe they will harvest our hair.

Just a reminder that a driverless car and autopilot and two different things.... I think we're miles away from having Johnny Cabs replacing Uber (in spite of the Google cars and Weymo etc)

 

[ChipChop]

So Statista’s sources are not specified, and there’s no insight provided as to why accident rates will increase. It doesn’t sound particularly credible. If I told you that accidents would decrease by 7% between now and 2027 would you believe me if I didn’t provide any information about either the source or the reason for that projection?

The sources are specified. It is the reasons ,for the continual increase in the number of road accidents, that are not.