Blue smoke after top end rebuild?

[Sp!ke]

If it is the bores... one wonders why they suddenly became worn so soon after the cylinder head job. My immediate thoughts would be that some dirt or some other foreign objects ended up in one or more of the the barrels whilst the head was off and wasnt removed/checked on reassembly.

I too have have had a rather poor experience at George's some time ago. I voted with my feet and have not been back since.

 

[Flash]

I too have have had a rather poor experience at George's some time ago. I voted with my feet and have not been back since.

I have never ever been anywhere but the Stealers but doubt I would ever go G/F now anyway if I ever needed too after reading this post and hearing what Spike said and JayM's expereince too...

 

[nickmann]

If it is the bores... one wonders why they suddenly became worn so soon after the cylinder head job. My immediate thoughts would be that some dirt or some other foreign objects ended up in one or more of the the barrels whilst the head was off and wasnt removed/checked on reassembly.
.

I think that's very likely to be it.

 

[jgevers]

If the heads are reconditioned, the compression ratio is restored because the valves will be sealing better and possible head skim. This will put extra strain on crank and rod bearings as well as the piston rings so extra wear is quite possible in quite a short period after head rebuilt. Mind you, if the technician did not clean the valves and guides after lapping them in, the cutting paste will soon give some valve guide wear that will make the engine smoke.......

The higher coolant temperature is a bit worrying though (but it could just be a sticking thermostat).

If it was my car I would do a cylinder leakdown test. This involves putting the cylinder in position where both valves are closed. Then use a compressed air through the sparkplughole with a gauge and valve in between. This will show if a cylinder has excess leakeage and by listening through exhaust, inlet, crank case and cooling system will show where it is leaking more.

I would also check if there are any hydrocarbons in the coolant which shows if there is combustion gasses leaking into the cooling system.

Good luck

Job

 

[KLP 92]

Been to see GF this morning. He has acknowledged the problem and has been more than fair. Customer service for me has not really been an issue as i have been using him for years and is a very good friend of the family.

He will take the car back in on Tuesday for a recheck. But when i got home it wasn't smoking Will take it for a spin tomorrow and recheck as it was dark. It was definately smoking when i popped into GF this morning! (they would let the car idle inside as it smoked the place out!)

The thermostats been changed twice, will change the temp sender unit monday to see.

 

[aka$h]

Tell G/F that I and posisbly other members shall think twice before taking any vehicle to him in the near future if he fails to satisfactorily resolve this issue for you...

I personally doubt that it is the bottom end of the engine that has gone especially as it was fine before G/f pi$$ed about with it.

Ive used george on many occasions and have always been very impressed with the service all round. He has agreed this is still a problem on the engine, Im sure he will want to resolve the issue as quickly and cheaply as possible, if its not the bottom end im sure he would be very pleased too.

Nav uses him regularly as do I, and it would be putting me off taking my car there on monday.

 

[jgevers]

I would expect GF to be honest and transparent with all their customers. They didn't get their good reputation by being unfair or dishonnest. It is easier to lose a good reputation than to get one........................

The sign of good garage is not that they do not make mistakes (everyone makes them) but how they deal with mistakes afterwards.

I would expect that GF will investigate and report honestly about their findings. In this case it could be either an honest mistake but it could just as easily be bottom end wear due to the higher compression (or a wrong oil choice can even give excess smoke).

I think that just because your visit to a garage hasn't been as expected immediately, it doesn't mean that the end result won't meet your expectations. As usual, increasing engine power by increasing the compression and flow doesn't always have the desired effect straight away but with a bit more effort, I'm sure it will come right.

I'm sure GF will advise you correctly.

Cheers,

Job

 

[Dieselman]

He will take the car back in on Tuesday for a recheck. But when i got home it wasn't smoking Will take it for a spin tomorrow and recheck as it was dark. It was definately smoking when i popped into GF this morning! (they would let the car idle inside as it smoked the place out!)

The thermostats been changed twice, will change the temp sender unit monday to see.

I wonder if there is a loose valve guide which has temporarily locked in place.

assuming you are not using the extra power when the temperature rises then suspect either the ignition timng or the mixture strength. Remember you now have high lift cams and a freflow exhaust.

 

[grober]

Weird

VERY STRANGE Still it sounds as if the bottom end is OK despite GF's being adamant it was the cause of the problem??? any problem that "corrects itself" like that should be able to be cured without to much trouble. Might be difficult to pin down however. Its good they saw the car while it was " smoking" Hope it turns out OK for you.

 

[KLP 92]

Nope, started smoking again!! Still puffs out blue smoke on idle!

Will take out plug 6&7 later and check the condition.

 

[big x]

To discount the bottom end you need to do a proper leakdown test.
Also compare the compression readings to see if they are similar on each cylinder.
My money is however on the High lift cams or breathing problems.

adam

 

[KLP 92]

Here's a pic of the plugs.

Plug 1(all look the same apart from 6&7):

Plug 6:

Plug 7:

 

[KLP 92]

I expected them to be alot worse judging by the amount of smoke!

 

[Dieselman]

Try running the car at fast idle upto about 2000 rpm. If the smoke clears it is probably valves, if it continues then it may well be rings.
Another test is to drive down a steep hill on over-run and put the box in low gear to raise the vacuum.
When you get to the bottom accellerate and watch for smoke. If there is a BIG burst which gradually clears then it is valves.
If the smoke gets worse as you drive up a steep hill under power then it is probably rings.

Is the engine breathing particularly heavilly from the breather?

 

[jgevers]

The plugs show that the problem is most likely to be in the valve area.

Piston problems normally oil up the centre part.
Valve guide/seal problems normally oil up the edges.

With the the plugs on 7&8 the way they are, I would expect valve stem seal damage, worn valve guides, loose guides or an oil leak in the inlet.

Cheers

Job

 

[Birdman]

You gave GF a car in good running order and his workshop sent it back with a broken engine. Ask him to sort it but not at your expense."

He isn't so naive as to do expensive tuning work on the top end of an older car without first checking the engine/drivetrain is in good order and it he didn't check this before starting it shows negligence imo. If the engine was in good order, then his workshop is probably at fault. And even if the problem really is just one of those unfortunate things, and no-one's fault, it is surely his responsibility to you his customer to worry about the quality of his work, check out the problem at his own expense and restore your faith in his garage.

If he comes up with a line you don't trust, tell him so. If you can't resolve the issues, get the car sorted elsewhere. Then, if there is good reason to believe his garage was at fault, take your bill round to him and quietly explain why in his own interests, he should pay it.

But remember, always the gentleman!

 

[big x]

The plugs show that the problem is most likely to be in the valve area.

Piston problems normally oil up the centre part.
Valve guide/seal problems normally oil up the edges.

With the the plugs on 7&8 the way they are, I would expect valve stem seal damage, worn valve guides, loose guides or an oil leak in the inlet.

Cheers

Job

What would be the reasons for top end wear/damage only oiling up the plugs at the edges ?

adam

 

[jgevers]

I don't know for sure, it was something I was taught when I was in my teens and has always been accurate, but I would expect that valve area oil will come in with the air fuel mixture, therefore being 'thinned down' and moving fast enough to burn properly at the hottest part of the plug.

Oil leakeage from the piston area is not 'flow accelerated' and will contaminate the whole plug.

I am just assuming this, it is not something I know for sure. All I do know is that all the engines I have looked at from Alfa to VW, it has worked for me to get to a faster diagnosis.

Cheers

 

[KLP 92]

Try running the car at fast idle upto about 2000 rpm. If the smoke clears it is probably valves, if it continues then it may well be rings.
Another test is to drive down a steep hill on over-run and put the box in low gear to raise the vacuum.
When you get to the bottom accellerate and watch for smoke. If there is a BIG burst which gradually clears then it is valves.
If the smoke gets worse as you drive up a steep hill under power then it is probably rings.

Is the engine breathing particularly heavilly from the breather?

At 2000 rev idle it continues puffing out blue smoke, just through the passenger side exhaust (the right and left side exhausts are seperate)

Its not breathing heavy either.

 

[KLP 92]

You gave GF a car in good running order and his workshop sent it back with a broken engine. Ask him to sort it but not at your expense."

He isn't so naive as to do expensive tuning work on the top end of an older car without first checking the engine/drivetrain is in good order and it he didn't check this before starting it shows negligence imo. If the engine was in good order, then his workshop is probably at fault. And even if the problem really is just one of those unfortunate things, and no-one's fault, it is surely his responsibility to you his customer to worry about the quality of his work, check out the problem at his own expense and restore your faith in his garage.

If he comes up with a line you don't trust, tell him so. If you can't resolve the issues, get the car sorted elsewhere. Then, if there is good reason to believe his garage was at fault, take your bill round to him and quietly explain why in his own interests, he should pay it.

But remember, always the gentleman!

GEorge is probably the most honest mechanic i've used. He's a good family friend as well so its not really an issue of cost with him.

My only concern was stripping the bottom end down if its a top end prob. They inspected the valve seals today and they are seated fine. Car's back in tomorrow for the complete head removed, recheck and then strip the bottom end if nothings found.