Bristol diesel ban

[219]

I assume that the Bristol ban is more about improving air quality in Bristol city centre (something we have localised control over) rather than global pollution (something that we have very limited control over).

I’m sure not just air quality but probably congestion too .

 

[219]

some LGVs and busses/coaches will be refueled at the depot but not all. the costs of installing a fuel tank on your premises is usually too much for most companys. the last three companies I worked for just gave drivers a fuel card and let us fill up whenever and sometimes whereever. in the case of drivers/trucks that are away all week how will they refuel

My dad had a diesel tank in his haulage yard throughout the 60’s , 70’s , 80’s but then being diesel it didn’t have to be underground - it was up in the air and fuel delivery was by gravity . Also the fleet of 40+ trucks were all tippers used in construction industry , plus a few CAT BTD6 and one BTD9 machines , which operated mostly within a 50 mile radius and the trucks returned to base every night ; we had 50 gallon drums with hand pumps which could be taken to site for the plant which might stay on a job for a while , since a low loader was generally needed to move them .

That worked fine for us as a smaller operator working close to base , but would be no good for long distance operators.

 

[219]

I am not at all worried, I’m am fully confident that our politicians will give us a substantial reduction in our road tax as we will not be able to use the roads, I’m am sure they are about to do the same because they are stealing our road space to make bus and cycle lanes, after all, it would not be fair to charge us the same amount of tax at the same time reducing the amount of roads we can use, blocking roads and funnelling us onto smaller roads causing the congestion they say they will have to tax us to stop.

They already recognise that those of us who run older classics are doing our bit for the environment and exempt us from VED , MOT and LEZ rules .

 

[219]

After Bristol, York will be banning all cars from within the walls and Oxford are also bring a ban on combustion engined vehicles, I feel sure many other’s, if not all cities, will jump on the bandwagon and ban or charge for roads we have paid for already, anyone for a Johnny cab.

They may have banned INTERNAL combustion engined vehicles , but have probably forgotten steam powered vehicles ...

Stanley steam car , or traction engine anyone ?

 

[Benzmanc]

How is that going to work for long distance runs where , as with diesel trucks , the runs often exceed the range of the vehicle ?

Most especially for international deliveries.

Why do you think you see so many trucks refuelling at truck stops ?

With megawatt chargers they can be refuelled when the driver takes a break, at the moment they won't work for everyone just as electric cars don't work for everyone 'yet'. I know all about trucks and refuelling having driven them for 25 years

 

[219]

With megawatt chargers they can be refuelled when the driver takes a break, at the moment they won't work for everyone just as electric cars don't work for everyone 'yet'. I know all about trucks and refuelling having driven them for 25 years

Sure , it will doubtless evolve , but at present the downside of fast charging is that it shortens the life cycle of batteries, and it generates a lot of heat .
With the lithium ion batteries used in a lot of my video and photo kit , there are also warnings against recharging whilst batteries are still warm following use - with some of my PAG L95 and L96 batteries , of which I have about 20 , costing into the high hundreds each , that is a warning I take heed of .

I’d expect that vehicle batteries which are doing a lot of work will get hot too ( I believe lithium ion technology is used here too ) and that putting them on rapid charge without a cooling down period won’t be at all good for them .

I think hydrogen fuel cells might be much better for LGV etc .

 

[Benzmanc]

Sure , it will doubtless evolve , but at present the downside of fast charging is that it shortens the life cycle of batteries, and it generates a lot of heat .
With the lithium ion batteries used in a lot of my video and photo kit , there are also warnings against recharging whilst batteries are still warm following use - with some of my PAG L95 and L96 batteries , of which I have about 20 , costing into the high hundreds each , that is a warning I take heed of .

I’d expect that vehicle batteries which are doing a lot of work will get hot too ( I believe lithium ion technology is used here too ) and that putting them on rapid charge without a cooling down period won’t be at all good for them .

I think hydrogen fuel cells might be much better for LGV etc .

You haven't done much research into EV battery tech then.

Hot batteries are optimal for EV use as they will charge faster and give longer range. Tesla actively heats the battery if it knows you're on the way to a supercharger for the fastest charging speed. The Li-On batteries used in portable equipment are not even in the same class.

Electric-car batteries recharge in ten minutes when the heat is on

Hydrogen cars are pointless as most ev owners charge at home, yes they are better for HGV use but there are very few refuelling stations and the cost for on site storage is usually prohibitive due to insurance costs

 

[219]

Oh , I haven’t done ANY research into EV batteries because I have no interest in buying one - petrol cars will be around long enough to see my motoring days out .

As a general principle it is better for batteries to charge slowly , but I appreciate this is difficult for vehicles . However tales of used EVs with vastly reduced ranges bears out the importance of taking care how you charge . I do with my portable equipment batteries and all are still near maximum capacity , but there are plenty around which have been ruined by neglect . They are all Li-ion technology , and a 5.5Ah camera battery pack really only differs from a vehicle pack in size and capacity .

We have quite a lot of lease car users at work with EVs now , and about 20 electric bays in the car park at HQ with the number increasing all the time , and all occupied with cars charging there all day . Most of our premises now have varying numbers of charge points , so that’s where the majority of our drivers charge up since it doesn’t cost them . The one EV user I’ve spoken to never charges at home , where he has to pay for the electricity , when workplace or public chargepoints are free .

I believe we are soon to get an electric fire appliance to trial - however the use pattern for fire appliances will differ from most other HGVs in as much as they sit in the station ( plugged in to keep their batteries charged ) until required , and mostly don’t go far when turned out . This sort of use cycle could potentially fit well with EVs , at least in city based stations where journeys are shortest and pollution from Diesel engines is more of a problem. Conventional Diesel appliances might still be better suited to rural areas where they often have to travel further .

I know there aren’t so many hydrogen fuelling stations in the UK yet , but I do see this catching on for larger vehicles and would expect to see more appearing at motorway services , truckstops etc over time . Such locations have the advantage of being away from populated areas so risks to others can be kept to a minimum.

 

[Dryce]

They are all Li-ion technology , and a 5.5Ah camera battery pack really only differs from a vehicle pack in size and capacity .

There are differences in complexity that allow the EV battery to be better managed.

Chances are your camera battery will have what? two or three cells? A vehicle battery will have many more.

The trick with more complex cell arrangements is that the battery can be managed and their use levelled. So you need to draw more power then you select more cells. When charging a complex battery the system can charge using different rates / strategies for different groups of cells depending on the cell condition. The battery management system can (in principle) record the history of each cell as well as more accurately tracking the state of each cell.

I believe we are soon to get an electric fire appliance to trial - however the use pattern for fire appliances will differ from most other HGVs in as much as they sit in the station ( plugged in to keep their batteries charged ) until required , and mostly don’t go far when turned out . This sort of use cycle could potentially fit well with EVs , at least in city based stations where journeys are shortest and pollution from Diesel engines is more of a problem. Conventional Diesel appliances might still be better suited to rural areas where they often have to travel further .

Problem is that if you have an appliance return then it may be effectively out of action for a quite a while getting recharged.

My recollection of the last incident I *heard* being dealt with is that the appliance ended up being noisy after it arrived ..... presumably pumps and power generation - so would an EV appliance still need to carry diesel to power these facilities?

I guess there are some people in the backrooms doing some very interesting operational analysis and evaluation of the real practicalities and how the new technology options meet their needs.

 

[219]

There are differences in complexity that allow the EV battery to be better managed.

Chances are your camera battery will have what? two or three cells? A vehicle battery will have many more.

The trick with more complex cell arrangements is that the battery can be managed and their use levelled. So you need to draw more power then you select more cells. When charging a complex battery the system can charge using different rates / strategies for different groups of cells depending on the cell condition. The battery management system can (in principle) record the history of each cell as well as more accurately tracking the state of each cell.



Problem is that if you have an appliance return then it may be effectively out of action for a quite a while getting recharged.

My recollection of the last incident I *heard* being dealt with is that the appliance ended up being noisy after it arrived ..... presumably pumps and power generation - so would an EV appliance still need to carry diesel to power these facilities?

I guess there are some people in the backrooms doing some very interesting operational analysis and evaluation of the real practicalities and how the new technology options meet their needs.

PAG L95 and L96 batteries have 12 cells and quite a lot of complex electronics inside , both to manage charge and discharge , and to communicate with certain cameras .

The chargers are also quite complex items with many options for plain charging , maintenance , discharge/charge cycles and recovery programmes . They aren't 'dumb' batteries as used in consumer equipment , and probably every bit as complex as the packs in vehicles .

https://www.paguk.com/sites/default/files/pdf/Batteries_L96Series.pdf

PAG 9382 L95 Time Battery

I currently have five of the AR series chargers to look after my stock of batteries - my stock of batteries and chargers cost more than my current fleet of cars ! But then most people would be shocked at the cost of broadcast kit where a decent camera can cost as much as a medium sized house or an expensive car .

https://www.paguk.com/sites/default/files/pdf/Chargers_ARSeries2.pdf


Re the electric fire appliance - we are going to be trialling one to see how it performs , I know almost nothing about it as yet , and it is certainly a long way off even being up for consideration of purchasing .

I've had similar thoughts re the logistics of using one for pumping at a protracted incident , and will be curious to see what comes out .

 

[flying haggis]

"I've had similar thoughts re the logistics of using one for pumping at a protracted incident , and will be curious to see what comes out ."

water probably...........................................................

 

[219]

Could be water based foam though , depending on the job

 

[flying haggis]

Pedant

 

[Istbclass]

Birmingham now

 

[Ted]

Birmingham now

yes...
Birmingham cars could be banned from driving through city centre Plan to ban cars through centre of Birmingham

 

[219]

Creating another urban wasteland where businesses will close as customers will be driven away , people who need tools or equipment to do their jobs won’t be able to work there , and essential deliveries will be made more expensive and more difficult.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Creating another urban wasteland where businesses will close as customers will be driven away , people who need tools or equipment to do their jobs won’t be able to work there , and essential deliveries will be made more expensive and more difficult.

Yeah because there couldn't be a middle ground could there?

 

[flying haggis]

and the article says "
There could also be restrictions on lorries making daytime deliveries." So any builders working in the zone couldnt get supplies etc. Who gets paid to think up these stupid schemes??

 

[219]

Yeah because there couldn't be a middle ground could there?

Nope - just look at car hating Edinburgh and the loss of business to see what they have in store .

 

[219]

and the article says "
There could also be restrictions on lorries making daytime deliveries." So any builders working in the zone couldnt get supplies etc. Who gets paid to think up these stupid schemes??

Moreover, said builders are going to pick up their vans and put them in their pockets .