Cyclists!

[edstrom76]

Can someone explain to me how come the term "road tax" is so widely used still? As far as I was aware, it was abolished in 1937 so plenty of time to take up the new name (vehicle excise duty). As has already been mentioned in this thread, the duty is based on emissions - no emissions, no VED. A lot of cars these days fall below the threshold for paying no VED - should they be banned from the roads too? How about electric cars?

I don't own a cycle by the way, nor do I aspire to ever buy or use one either

 

[Clkrichard]

230k you are making a quantum leap from me saying I dont respect rule breaking cyclists whom I regard as a menace to saying I dont value their lives.
Please dont misrepresent my comments !
Virtually all cyclists in central London are downright dangerous - especially to pedestrians. Most ignore all the rules especially traffic lights and pedestrian crossings. In the countryside I see so many unlit cyclists at night time. I swerve to miss them so maybe I value their lives more than they do ?
I believe cyclists should be required to have third party insurance while using public roads, helmets should be compulsory and licenses would be a good idea perhaps ?

 

[Martyn_n]

.......... I put my lights on full beam to see where it was SAFE to pass them. They were riding three abreast and overtaking each other and all in a long bunch - much like trying to pass an erratic car and caravan travelling at around 20 - 25 mph.........

So if you were sat behind a caravan combo doing 25mph on a twisty country lane (A reasonable speed I think) you would sit behind it with your main beam on? I'm guessing you probably wouldn't. Three cyclists abreast are about the same width as a car and as you should give the riders the same courtesy you should give a car I cannot see the issue, had they done as you wanted and gone into single file the row of bikes would have been three times as long and you would still have had to go onto the other side of the road to pass them. Sometimes the best way to protect yourself as a cyclist is indeed to actively discourage overtaking by a motor vehicle by taking up more of the road, it is something all cycle training schemes teach, and these guys riding in this manner probably stopped you attempting an overtake that you couldn't have completed safely on that road, perversely they may have reduced to two abreast where the road was more condusive to overtaking. It takes some getting your head around but remember these people are amongst the most vaunerable on the road and as can be seen by some of the comments already made not all road users care to much for their safety and they (I should say we) have to look out for ourselves.

I can certainly see where the antics of some cyclists, paricularly in the urban areas, winds people up but to take it out on ALL cyclist is just pathetic. I agree they should keep their tempers under control but remember you were probably not the first impatient driver they had behind them that day and your main beam antics would have been interpreted in much the same way by any road user.

By the way I am not ashamed to admit to being a vegetarian cyclist so dont see fianna's comments as an insult, I am however insured on my bike, I pay RFL on two vehicle that I hardly use (not that it is relevant to road use) but I don't however hug trees (Tried it once and found it a very one sided relationship). By the way it was a beautiful, if a little cold, riding into work this morning. Much more fun than all the people I passed scraping their screens, and not spoilt too much by those that hadn't bothered (But that's another thread)

 

[Will]

Can someone explain to me how come the term "road tax" is so widely used still? As far as I was aware, it was abolished in 1937 so plenty of time to take up the new name (vehicle excise duty).

Blame the Government

https://www.gov.uk/browse/driving/car-tax-discs

When the people that charge you 'VED' call it 'car tax' and sell you a 'tax disc', that's what everyone's going to call it

 

[Will]

But I seriously cannot remember the last time whilst I was waiting at traffic lights that a cyclist going my direction actually waited until they turned green, they either creep slowly through and make a dash if its clear, or proceed to cycle onto the pavement and make their way across the pedestrian crossing area......and that just one HC violation.

Yep - I agree.

People tend to do what they think they can get away with - as you say almost all cyclists jump red lights etc, almost all motorcyclists speed (as do most car drivers, but motorcyclists are normally loads worse), car drivers do some bad stuff too - but our roads are still safe enough for us all to want to use them

I think it's pretty fair to say that there are more than a few self-righteous cyclists who tend to get p!ssed off with car drivers just as car drivers get p!ssed off with them - best to ignore each other and get on with the task at hand.

But going back to the OP - cyclists riding 2/3/4 abreast continuously does annoy me - I think some of them assume that making it harder for cars to pass will make it safer for them - but I think it does the opposite IMHO. Fair enough, give yourself room and all that but let the faster vehicles pass safely and on their way rather than distracting them and getting them annoyed which it does tend to do (hence this thread!)

 

[230K]

230k you are making a quantum leap from me saying I dont respect rule breaking cyclists whom I regard as a menace to saying I dont value their lives.
Please dont misrepresent my comments !
Virtually all cyclists in central London are downright dangerous - especially to pedestrians. Most ignore all the rules especially traffic lights and pedestrian crossings. In the countryside I see so many unlit cyclists at night time. I swerve to miss them so maybe I value their lives more than they do ?
I believe cyclists should be required to have third party insurance while using public roads, helmets should be compulsory and licenses would be a good idea perhaps ?

Please explain how you as a motorist disrespect cyclists then. Maybe you have been unlucky but 2 accidents with cyclists in your motoring career in my mind indicates a disrespect bordering on dangerous.

230k

 

[Clkrichard]

I disrespect any group of road users who selfishly flout the rules of the road and put others at risk. There appears to be a larger percentage of cyclists amongst all cyclists who fall into this category. We all have stories to tell about white van man or 4x4 drivers but I still maintain that a larger percentage of cyclists are dangerous menaces than any other group of road users.
Location may have something to do with our apparently opposing views. If you spent a day walking or driving in London I suspect your view might move nearer to mine.
If the majority of cyclists are paragons of virtue then all would agree to licences, helmets, and insurance....... or would they ? If my car damages anothers property I am required to provide my contact details and to have insurance to cover any repair costs I do not meet myself. Motorcyclists are in the same position. Why shouldnt pedal cyclists be subject to the same ?
I have no great issue with the VED argument although I think all road users should pay to use the roads and also believe it should be collected via a tax on fuel. That way cyclists, horse riders, runners etc are exempted and the more that motorists use the roads the more they pay. "Green" car drivers would pay less than me because their cars are more economical, which I could live with.
I doubt we are going to agree but when I see all cyclists stopping for traffic lights and pedestrian crossings and not riding on pavements then I will start to respect you all.

 

[Martyn_n]

........when I see all cyclists stopping for traffic lights and pedestrian crossings and not riding on pavements then I will start to respect you all.

And in the mean time you will respect none of us?

Hopefully incident number three, or are there more as you only mention the "last two" does not result in a serious injury (don't worry too much it won't hurt you).

I've recently been knoked off my bike and it bl**dy well hurts more than any minor scrapes I've had in a car and for that reason I can assure you that most cyclists are not looking at crashing into your car deliberately.

Whilst agreeing with you that the type of cyclists you can come across in central london should be banned from the road, I genuinely pitty the (decent) cyclists who come across your path because as long as you have the feeling that all incidents involving cyclists are their own fault you are an absolute menace to them (and their families)

 

[edstrom76]

Blame the Government

https://www.gov.uk/browse/driving/car-tax-discs

When the people that charge you 'VED' call it 'car tax' and sell you a 'tax disc', that's what everyone's going to call it

I can live with 'car tax' but 'road tax' is implying that you pay tax in order to use the roads.

I wonder what folks in the haulage business refer to it as, 'lorry tax' or perhaps 'truck tax'? That said, the term 'car' is quite broad and could include lorries too I suppose. 'Vehicle' is better though.

 

[Clkrichard]

Martyn thank you for a biased and distorted response.
Yes I regard all cyclists, including you, as menaces. I therefore give all of you a wide berth - I am not sure why that makes me a menace. I expect all cyclists to wobble, swerve, change lanes or turn without looking or signalling so give them as much room as I can.
Both cyclists who crashed into me had gone through red lights colliding with me on greens. No I wasnt hurt but my car was. They were hurt too and I hope learned from the experience. Am I sympathetic that they rode through red lights and hurt themselves on hitting my car ? Not in the slightest.
All the while I regard all cyclists as menaces and leave them a wide berth all they have to worry about is their own stupidity and lack of regard for others.
Sorry if that grates but I can only base my views on my own personal experience and that goes beyond the two idiots who have ridden into me in recent years ( yes of course there have been a couple of others in the 48 years I have been driving plus hundreds I have managed to avoid)
Anyway please do regard me as a menace if it makes you happier as I am cocooned in a ton of metal so if you choose to cycle into me it wont be me that gets hurt. You could of course cycle responsibly and then neither of us will have a problem !

 

[Martyn_n]

I don't think my views are biased, I am both a driver and a cyclist, how much of both do you do to come up with your unbiased position. In fact I agreed with you in one of my posts about some cyclist's behaviour, I am not blind to bad cyclists in the same way you are blind to the good ones. (Just because they behave different to drivers does not mean they are wrong and you are right)

Can anyone else match CLKrichard's record of being involved in an accident with a cylist once every 12 years? In my 25 years of driving I've managed to not be involved in a single incident, a quick poll of my office puts the average incident rate at once every....actually no-one has had such an incident.

Do you really think you are somehow completely blameless in all this Richard? Because if you do I would suggest that this is the reason you keep having accidents that the majority of other people don't seem to be involved in.

I can assure you it does not make me happy to think that there are manaces out there like you, and as I stated no-one chooses to ride a cycle into a car, that would be just as brainless as your denial of any degree of responsibility for the incidents you have been unfortunate enough to have had imposed on you.

 

[st13phil]

These threads about cyclists always deteriorate into polarised slanging matches.

The fact is that there are idiot drivers and idiot cyclists. When one comes into conflict with the other, the one with soft squidgy bodywork will always come off worse. Perhaps if each group treated the other with a little more respect and consideration, and the ones without the tin box around them thought a little more about their own self preservation than their "rights" there would be less to get angry about.

I always come back to something a very high-ranking Met Police officer friend once said to me years ago about an incident that happened to him when he was out training on his racing cycle. After considering what had just happened (he had nearly been wiped out by a truck while he was cycling on a dual carriageway subject to NSL), he observed about his own behaviour that "just because what I was doing was legal, didn't make it sensible".

If the lycra louts that caused the conflict with the OP were to think more about what was sensible instead of deliberately riding in such a way that they effectively became a large, slow-moving vehicle causing an obstruction, then there would have been no conflict.

 

[Clkrichard]

Martyn I owe you and every other cyclist an apology.
It was entirely selfish of me to go through a green traffic light and obstruct cyclists riding through a red and into my car. I should have known that the Highway Code doesnt apply to cyclists. As for statistics the last kamikaze cyclist to ride into me was probably 15 years ago and the one prior to that 20 years ago. If you and your colleagues work in an office I doubt you cover many miles in a year.
I dont make a habit of seeking out suicidal cyclists so maybe I was unlucky.
The interesting factor is that in those days 99% of my motoring was in central London where I suspect the problem is much much worse.
The point I was originally making was that it isnt usually possible for car drivers to identify the cyclists who are going to ride into them until it happens. For that reason I try to drive as if they are all going to and treat them all as "menaces" .
One thing I will accuse many cyclists of ( yes ok only the bad ones !) is an attitude of not caring about car drivers, or the HC, pedestrians, or even common courtesy and riding as if they own the road and pavements. Being in the right (or wrong) and being under the wheels of a bus though is just plain dumb.
I will continue to view all cyclists as menaces and try to avoid hitting one or being hit by one - isnt that what you two wheelers want from me ? If not lets continue debating this but if I am honest I am bored with this now !

 

[NOMONEYBUTAMERC]

15 years ago I attended a Coroners Court for the inquest into the death of a 13 year old girl. The young lady in question was cycling with a couple of friends , when without any indication, she turned sharp right , into the front of a car driven by one of my relatives. Several witnesses stated that there was little or nothing he could have done to avoid the accident (the girls were all cycling along a pavement). This incident has had a profound impact on my relative ,which in itself is nothing compared to the loss felt by the girls family. Since that day I have treated all cyclists with a greater degree of caution , and err on the side of assuming they are lacking in road sense. The use of vehicles on roads is a privilege , and as such is therefore open to abuse , and lets face it , most of us abuse the privilege to a greater or lesser extent. I am not noted for my patience or driving slowly , but in the event of being slightly delayed by cyclists , I would rather be a few minutes inconvenienced , than a lifetime too late. Incidentally the girls family stated in court that had cycle helmets been compulsory ,she would probably have survived.

 

[Stratman]

When I rode motorcycles, I continually asked myself "What is the most stupid and dangerous thing that could happen right now?", assumed it would and acted accordingly.

I can still walk unaided and without even a slight limp.

 

[artyman]

Always a good strategy to drive as though every other road user is a complete idiot, keeps you safer.

We have a local stretch of motorway that has a 40mph restriction for road works, yet dozens have been caught speeding, the difference in journey time for the restricted distance even at NSL must be counted in tens of seconds, is time that urgent!

 

[Martyn_n]

Martyn I owe you and every other cyclist an apology.
It was entirely selfish of me to go through a green traffic light and obstruct cyclists riding through a red and into my car. I should have known that the Highway Code doesnt apply to cyclists. As for statistics the last kamikaze cyclist to ride into me was probably 15 years ago and the one prior to that 20 years ago. If you and your colleagues work in an office I doubt you cover many miles in a year.
I dont make a habit of seeking out suicidal cyclists so maybe I was unlucky.
The interesting factor is that in those days 99% of my motoring was in central London where I suspect the problem is much much worse.
The point I was originally making was that it isnt usually possible for car drivers to identify the cyclists who are going to ride into them until it happens. For that reason I try to drive as if they are all going to and treat them all as "menaces" .
One thing I will accuse many cyclists of ( yes ok only the bad ones !) is an attitude of not caring about car drivers, or the HC, pedestrians, or even common courtesy and riding as if they own the road and pavements. Being in the right (or wrong) and being under the wheels of a bus though is just plain dumb.
I will continue to view all cyclists as menaces and try to avoid hitting one or being hit by one - isnt that what you two wheelers want from me ? If not lets continue debating this but if I am honest I am bored with this now !

Thank you for your completely insincere apology. I am in no way denying that cyclists can behave badly, including jumping red lights. You may be surprised to hear that this happens to all of us motorists, but somehow most of us take appropriate action and don't end up hitting them! (By the way my office today, paperwork day, consisted of staff who probably do in excess of 15k mile a year each and I have regularly exceeded 40k a year)
I appreciate your courtesy of giving cyclists a wide berth (something you are obliged to do in your beloved HC) what I am upset by is your reasoning for doing so; Not because it is the right thing to do but because you consider us all idiots and a risk to ourselves and "suicidal" based on the cyclists that stick in your memory, if I judged all drivers on the ones I remember from my ride home tonight, the ones who pulled out in front of me, cut me up or were texting / holding a phone conversation I could be as bitter and twisted as you. I choose to remember that the majority of other drivers which I don't remember didn't pose a threat to me and for that reason I choose to see the good side of motorists, whereas you chose to focus on the poor cyclists you recall and vent your hatred on all of us.

In a final attempt to assure you that we (I have my cycling hat on now) don't weave around with the sole attempt to commit suicide or p*ss you off I would like to list some the reasons I deviated from a straight line on my way home tonight;
Potholes, (Obviously)
Missing drain cover,
A bizarre lump of ice (off a lorry refrigeration unit no doubt)
A shattered brake disk, (Glad that wasn't me)
Poorly parked cars,
Something that looked like a dildo,
Part of a coil spring (Probably a Merc)
A really big plastic bag hanging off a tree,
And finally, to maintain balance, the remnants of an aluminium bicycle pedal.
As a car driver I probably would not have given them a second glance but as you can see, apart from the final item, us two wheelers are not always to blame for us veering a few inches closer to the cars passing us.

These obstacles are not going away any time soon and as a result us cyclists will continue to be a little unpredictable because we are reacting to obstructions that are not visible / relevant to us car drivers. For that reason us motorists will have to continue to give us cyclists a wide enough berth, not because that is the law but because it is the decent thing to do.
Wine fuelled rant over
good night to ALL

out

 

[Troon]

Its got everything to do with Road Tax,
I pay LOADS on 3 cars & 2 Bikes when I can only use one at a time

Cars that have now aquired Free Road Tax have contributed previously in Road Tax, and continue to pay Tax & Duty on Fuel

You do not pay road tax. The roads are free to use for everyone, paid for out of the general treasury. You pay vehicle tax, for the privilege of owning a motor vehicle (or five).

The only point I agree on is that serious cyclists (possibly "any cyclists") should have insurance. Joining the CTC gives you third-party insurance within the membership fee.

 

[Clkrichard]

Martyn my "apology"was fully intended to be insincere.
Ridicule my "beloved" HC all you like but you simply demonstrate that cyclists dont believe that the rules of the road apply to them.
If you read my posts properly you will see that both cyclists rode into me rather than me hitting them.
I hear what you say about your need to swerve round road debris and its just that which makes cyclists a danger to themselves and other road users. If the roads are too icy to be safe I dont drive on them and wouldnt blame others if I did so and crashed. Cyclists on the other hand seem to believe they have the right to swerve and wobble to avoid potholes, drains, and debris and then blame cars that fail to avoid them.
This whole thread demonstrate the attitude of many cyclists. I have consistently said that my past bad experiences with cyclists have made me give all of you a wide berth. That has been vilified - God knows why ? Throughout this cyclists seem to defend their inconsiderate attitudes towards other road users.
I will continue to give all cyclists a wide berth and cyclists will continue to ride inconsiderately ........ Some thing will never change !
Out.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

I understand the amateur/professional cyclists being bunched together as "cyclists", but when did just random dudes with a push iron become part of the same group?