diesel or petrol?

[Dryce]

The power delivery in a petrol is better , with more power coming in as revs increase , which is where and when you need it for fast open road driving , overtaking etc

With the modern 3 litre 6 pot diesel lumps the power delivery is all about operation of the modern 7 or 8 speed transmissions in combination with the engine.

I don't believe the power delivery of the petrol is better in this sort of setup - in fact the opposite is possibly true.

However I don't think one of these performance diesels is likely to be much fun with a manual box - whereas that manual option would lie open with a decent powered petrol lump.

 

[jotter22]

The issue for owning a diesel for me is:
I never seem to be able to fill up without getting some devil fuel on me some where the pumps are never clean so gloves are a must....Its just agricultural!

Tony.

 

[DITTRICH]

Dryce and Pontoneer have summarised everything very well but I add my 2c:-

1 Economics - no-one likes spending money.
2 Age of the vehicle - modern diesels are complicated beasts and as they age they are likely to wrong in more complicated ways. And because the manufacturers insist ion cramming everything in, modern cars are more costly to work on.
3 The driving experience and characteristics of petrol vs diesel.

I own two cars which are complete opposites: a petrol w202 c230 kompressor (I4) saloon (arguably the best non AMG engine of its generation), and a s124 e300 diesel (I6) estate. The kompressor is fun, lively and very chuckable, whereas the vast e300 is tractor-like in noise, performance and handling. The w202 gets 35mpg @ 70mph and 5speed auto. The s124 gets up to 45mpg @ 50mph and 4 speed auto. If I want to get somewhere quickly then c230k. If I need interior space and baggage space and time isn't important the e300d.

 

[markjay]

...1 Economics - no-one likes spending money...

Perhaps, but apart from minicab drivers, white van men, and people living in rural areas, most people do not really need a car - OK, this is an exaggeration however the point is that a car ownership is in large measure an act of pleasure rather than a simple exercise in economics. People often buy what they think they will derive most pleasure from - for some it is the roar of the V8.

 

[Dryce]

Perhaps, but apart from minicab drivers, white van men, and people living in rural areas, most people do not really need a car - OK, this is an exaggeration

I think the situation is probably better expressed in that people do not actually need the car they own.

At the end of the day a modern super-mini is faster, smoother, safer, and more comfortable than the family saloons of the 60s. But many people will recoil from using these excellent products for long journeys.

I certainly dont *need* the car I actually have. A 1.2 Clio would fulfil all my practical needs.

 

[flango]

I think the situation is probably better expressed in that people do not actually need the car they own..

I think this is spot on However I believe I am one of the few who choose their car based on need. That's why I run a Volvo V70, I need the space for my day to day work and it doubles as the household and garden rubbish removal vehicle at weekends

To cater for my driving needs I have the CLK as a weekend car.

Much like DITTRICH I drive whichever suits my needs on the occasion and also agree the M111 kompressor is one of the best engines of it's generation

 

[markjay]

Or, as Jeremy Clarkson once said, not one really needs anything other than a Volkswagen Golf...

 

[fordgt40]

Can't decide whether to get a petrol or diesel Mercedes next. Pro's and con's for both, but which is better......?

I've had 2 used diesel C350's both estates, bought from Merc dealer, the first I swapped, (within the 30 exchange arangement because of a bodywork issue) for another, both had done approx 8000 miles, should have known better, kept it for a few months, (fairly smooth but a bit disappointed with the fuel consumption for a diesel) exchanged it for a C63 2 years ago and still got it, never looked back, such a joy, once a petrolhead always a petrolhead.

 

[mr tibbs]

Perhaps, but apart from minicab drivers, white van men, and people living in rural areas, most people do not really need a car -

That'll be about 60% of the population then
I am looking for an E320 with the I6 diesel engine because I hope that it will be reasonably cost effective to run and last for years, whilst retaining most of what I am going to spend (not much admittedly) if we decide to change it.
That is the plan anyway....

Keith

 

[peter49]

I've had straight six petrol cars all my adult life , and one V8 petrol.

In the last year I got my first ever Diesel , a straight five E250 , then changed it for the C270 , another straight five .

I'd have to say , of the two diesels , the normally aspirated E250 was the better drive and sounded better - almost like a six cylinder petrol once on the move , but I sold it on due to a gearbox fault . The C270 , despite being a CDI turbo diesel , more powerful etc , just feels 'flat' and never has any feeling of excitement to it ; it is just a bore to drive and doesn't even make a nice noise , just a bland , subdued , constant drone in the background . It returns good mpg , but the downside has been big garage bills for diesel injectors which have wiped out the fuel economy savings .

Like you, I have driven 6 pots, straight and V, petrol and diesel, for many years. My exception was a CLK 270CDi with 5 pots. Again, like you, I found it unrewarding. My current C320 CDi is a different engine entirely. Very quick, very smooth 7 speed box and an average of 43m/g over 56,000 miles with no additional costs beyond servicing.
At the time of purchase I could have bought a 320 petrol for the same price with an average mpg of ~30m/g over the same mileage. I reckon that I have saved £4,600 worth of pre-tax income by choosing the diesel.

 

[markjay]

peter49, as mentioned by other, the biggest cost of ownership for most owner is depreciation, not cost of fuel.

It would be interesting to know how much did either car cost at the time you were considering the purchase - and how much would each car be worth now?

 

[Dryce]

Like you, I have driven 6 pots, straight and V, petrol and diesel, for many years. My exception was a CLK 270CDi with 5 pots. Again, like you, I found it unrewarding. My current C320 CDi is a different engine entirely. Very quick, very smooth 7 speed box and an average of 43m/g over 56,000 miles with no additional costs beyond servicing.

We're currently running a 6 pot petrol Z4 and my 6 pot diesel 6er.

The drivetrain in the 6er is a different class in terms of agility and power delivery. But while being blown away on the straights by the 6er - the Z4 is as smooth as silk and makes a better noise when rev'ed.

I had a 4 pot C220 for a few days last month and it was definitely a much cruder machine than the 6-pots below 60mph. But that said it was very tractable. If I was comparing it with a 4 pot petrol Mondeo or Insignia it would have felt quite good - but against what I normally drive I was having to make some allowances.

 

[peter49]

peter49, as mentioned by other, the biggest cost of ownership for most owner is depreciation, not cost of fuel.

It would be interesting to know how much did either car cost at the time you were considering the purchase - and how much would each car be worth now?

Diesels tend to lose less in depreciation than petrols, though it all depends on the method of selling ie: Private sale or PX and, in this case, negotiating acumen.

 

[markjay]

Diesels tend to lose less in depreciation than petrols, though it all depends on the method of selling ie: Private sale or PX and, in this case, negotiating acumen.

True, however diesel cars are also more expensive to buy then petrol cars, both as new cars (diesel engine parts are more expensive to make) , and as second hand cars (due to lower depreciation).

So those who make their decision purely based on economical considerations should really look at all the factors including depreciation, cost of repairs (if not under warranty), and cost of fuel per litre, rather than just compare mpg figures before passing a verdict that one type of car is more economical to own than the other.

 

[flango]

True, however diesel cars are also more expensive to buy then petrol cars, both as new cars (diesel engine parts are more expensive to make) , and as second hand cars (due to lower depreciation).

So those who make their decision purely based on economical considerations should really look at all the factors including depreciation, cost of repairs (if not under warranty), and cost of fuel per litre, rather than just compare mpg figures before passing a verdict that one type of car is more economical to own than the other.

Never a truer word spoken , there's a lot more to take into account than just mpg.

 

[Dryce]

True, however diesel cars are also more expensive to buy then petrol cars, both as new cars (diesel engine parts are more expensive to make) , and as second hand cars (due to lower depreciation).

So those who make their decision purely based on economical considerations should really look at all the factors including depreciation,

It's really about what is expensive or cheap to own rather than buy.

Contract-hire and leasing makes a mockery of pricing on some models.

Marques like MB are increasingly removing petrol as an option so it's increasingly difficult to make any realistic cost comparison above 2 litres - basically becoming a petrol void in saloons until you reach 4 litres and V8s.

 

[219]

I suppose that depends on what you are paying - I don't normally pay more than £1K or so for a car , and often less .

Some of the best cars I've had have been the cheapest , including my £300 and £500 190E's , the £700 and £500 W124's .

The last W124 , bought for £500 was sold on for £250 six months later - that may sound alarming if looked at as 50% depreciation , but quite reasonable if I look at it as £40/month cost of ownership .

For me , running costs really are just fuel , tax and insurance , and any parts required during ownership . The older cars I can work on myself but newer cars tend to require garage jobs due to their complexity , so that is a major downside for me .

 

[peter49]

Never a truer word spoken , there's a lot more to take into account than just mpg.

I agree and after 8 years of running diesels, I am yet to see how my ownership has been more expensive than had I chosen petrols. Price negotiation when purchasing and selling are clearly key factors in protecting capital. So are maintenance costs and fortunately, beyond normal servicing, I haven't incurred any to date that would have been unique to a diesel.

 

[Deleted member 65149]

There is no simple answer. As others have already said, it's very much a matter of horses for courses. Some of us simply couldn't live with the tickover engine rattle and the smell of fuel that pervades so much with diesels. Others have convinced themselves that the "savings" with diesels far outweigh all the drawbacks.

Then you get the technocops who tell us that the extra torque of diesels is way better than petrols' horses. But I think it's more about how both of those are delivered. And therein lies the rub. The differences are vast between manufacturers. For instance I was given a lift the other day in a neighbour's A5 3.0 TDi and I had no idea that it was a diesel - until I got out and heard it! Conversely a friend had a new E220 CDi on test recently and it was painfully obvious that the four pots were being fuelled with the funny stuff. It felt and sounded most unlike a quality prestige car at anything below 20mph. On the motorway it was fine though, albeit much underpowered. But even that was way better than the new A180 CDi I went in a few weeks back - it felt and sounded nowhere near as sophisticated as the 850 Morris Minor I had back in the 60s!!

In essence, it would take a hell of a lot to persuade me to buy diesel. There are millions who are delighted with them, but there are also millions who like McDonalds. Which brings me nicely back to where I started - horses for courses

 

[developer]

and the smell of fuel that pervades so much with diesels.

An interesting one this.

I get no diesel smell , nothing at all, other than at the pumps, where you get a petrol smell with petrols too.