Dishonest Garage? Or they might be right...?

[bob6600]

OK to be fair to Dack, they have sent it to a local Bosch dealer who have tested the injectors. You are not obliged to get brand new ones from them so you could ask if they can be refurbished or if you can supply them. What you need to decide is do you want to proceed with this or cut your losses? Again you could fit a 2nd hand pump but you will not get any warranty for the repair, that's if they will fit it in the first place

 

[chic0821]

I think you have to have a good face to face talk with them alone the lines of are you going to guarantee that after all this has been done, nothing else is going to surface costing even more. Only after that can you decide the way forward. Do not do it over email, text etc. You will only get a good/bad feeling after a face to face.

 

[tgl3]

UPDATE: following suggestions from friends here, I went down to the garage this afternoon to have a face to face discussion with them. They showed me the sample fuel with metallic debris inside and they think the debris most likely came from the worn high pressure fuel pump (because the low pressure fuel pump is made by plastics).

Two options were then discussed, either I walk away and sell the broken car to someone, or carrying the repair. However, "to save my pocket", they said they can transport the car to another connected garage who specializes in fuel system works at Birmingham to carry the repair. The expected costs will then be lower than carrying the work by themselves, but still expensive for me. Costs for replacing the injectors is likely to be unchanged (£1400); and costs for testing, refurbishing the fuel pump and flushing the fuel system are gonna be approx. another £1100, so the total bill for fix it sums up to approx. £2500. That's just an estimation I don't know if it's going to be any higher because I have no experience at this.

Its therefore now for me to decide whether repair it or not...

 

[tgl3]

ADDED: No matter I repair the car or not, the incurred charges for the inspections and injectors testing (approx.£360) will still need to be paid. But they said they may be able to claim that £360 from my warranty, but I will lose the remaining (£500-£360) contribution.

 

[tgl3]

OK to be fair to Dack, they have sent it to a local Bosch dealer who have tested the injectors. You are not obliged to get brand new ones from them so you could ask if they can be refurbished or if you can supply them. What you need to decide is do you want to proceed with this or cut your losses? Again you could fit a 2nd hand pump but you will not get any warranty for the repair, that's if they will fit it in the first place

Dack said they will handle the car to Carwood at Birmingham. I searched Carwood on Google but it looks like Carwood is a car parts manufacturer not a garage...??

 

[markjay]

Dack said they will handle the car to Carwood at Birmingham. I searched Carwood on Google but it looks like Carwood is a car parts manufacturer not a garage...??

These?

Fuel Injection Systems - Carwood

Fuel Injection Systems OE-approved fuel pumps and injectors for a high-quality, affordable vehicle repair Get In Touch OE Approved Remanufactured pumps and injectors approved by the leading OEMs FULL-SERVICE SOLUTION Full lineup of OE new, reman and repair solutions for petrol and diesel Cost &...

carwood.co.uk

I suppose they may have some sort of garage facilities?

 

[Tuercas viejas]

I can comment if I may .
That fuel sample should have been taken the moment the car was brought in on the hook and pushed into the repair stall. That is bad and the worse than I have seen for ages
Furthermore one of the first things is taking a quick scan in live data to see what is the rail pressure being produced, then remove the fuel filter and inspect the contents .
The next step being fuel pressure development as the problem & focus then in on the HPIP , so remove it (three 7mm bolts) and tear it open!
If its full of metal such as scuffed piston(s) and /or ring cam,. or even broken piston return springs, then the pump is toast! .

The transmission of swarf suspended in the fuel into the injectors is inevitable as a contingent condition, and being Piezo style its new every time when defective ,so really no need to send them out for testing, they will be toast as well.
Now since the metal has contaminated the rail, its best to replace it c/w sensors, and even the HP injector pipes because the loose material will have exfoliated the injector pipe interiors adding to yet another latent issue. Potentially adding a further dimensional issue with injection system should it be overlooked or ignored .
Then its a fuel line purge and clean out the tank & LP pump.
Its at this stage where a call to the customer is essential as the bringer of bad news, and a potential wallet flush of a repair in the making.

I/We have had to do this many times as the parts bill will soar like a rocket .
In my dollar world an HPIP is $1775 , rail is around $995, injectors are $ 525 each .
Injector pipes $90 each
Labor is likely to be around 12 hours or say $1800 .to $2000.
I would state that the gleaned info from the narrative, the shop is not too experienced with these types of failures . Again just like over here that is understandable .

As a side bar a few years ago we had in a Sprinter Ambo with a similar problem brought in on the hook from Casper Wyoming , about 280 miles away .
The Ambo had stroke patient in the back when they pulled in for fuel .
Essentially the gas station storage tank was taking on rainwater so the crew innocently filled with a mix of 25 gallons of diesel & water.
It made it halfway across the forecourt before it fell on its knees.
Some king hearted trucker bunged 1/2 a gallon of some yum yum they use on the oil fields to get it to run .
That really did it in !
The bill to fix was just over $14,000 or about 10,000 quid.
These thing can internally grenade themselves when the fuel ls suspect.
All the best
Tuercas Viejas





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[tgl3]

These?

Fuel Injection Systems - Carwood

Fuel Injection Systems OE-approved fuel pumps and injectors for a high-quality, affordable vehicle repair Get In Touch OE Approved Remanufactured pumps and injectors approved by the leading OEMs FULL-SERVICE SOLUTION Full lineup of OE new, reman and repair solutions for petrol and diesel Cost &...

carwood.co.uk

I suppose they may have some sort of garage facilities?

I have no idea about them even never heard of them! It seems like they don't have a good reputation on Google. Finger crossed they will not sell faulty/inferior injectors or pump to me

 

[Ted]

Dack said they will handle the car to Carwood at Birmingham. I searched Carwood on Google but it looks like Carwood is a car parts manufacturer not a garage...??

Carwood are an auto electrical and diesel specialist. They have been around since 1966 and are very well regarded in the trade. They have full diesel test and refurbishment facilities and I would trust them 100%.
I started my apprenticeship as an auto electrician with them in 1970 and was with them for 6 1/2 years.
They have a large facility on the Binley trading estate, not far from the TGIF roundabout.

 

[chic0821]

As I said previously, they have been learning on the job at your expense. Looks like they are out of their depth & want rid. Pity they did not tell you earlier. Looks like Carwood are experts in injection systems. If they have been around since 1966 they must be doing something right.. Have a chat with them, ask for a walk through on what they will be doing & see if they think anything else will show up. Obviously they cannot say for sure until they get into it, but must have done this in the past & will have an idea. As Tuercas says its going to be expensive & see if they will be doing everything he suggests. Also you have to weigh up whether the car will need any other remedial work in the near future, as you don't want to spend a fortune. then another large bill on something else. Its a predicament that no one wants to be in.

 

[Petrol Pete]

OK , let us say OP goes with Carwood and gets all that stuff sorted , is it possible some metallic parts have entered the combustion chambers ? or are the injector orifices too small for that to happen ?

 

[chic0821]

I think the injector holes are about 0.008 inch. They would be more liable to clog up than let anything thro. Human hair is about 0.007 inch

Had a quick read about Carwood, about 100 employees, provide equipment for pretty high end clients. Seem to know their stuff. The reviews I read were very good (Yell). Pity OP's car had not been taken there first

 

[bob6600]

The Birmingham centre is listed here

https://www.boschaftermarket.com/xrm/media/images/country_specific/gb/services_2/workshop_concepts/bosch_diesel_concepts/gb_ie_bdx_workshop_list_2020.pdf

 

[tgl3]

OK , let us say OP goes with Carwood and gets all that stuff sorted , is it possible some metallic parts have entered the combustion chambers ? or are the injector orifices too small for that to happen ?

They suggested the possibility of damaging other parts although the possibility is small. They need to check the whole system again once the car has shipped to their site and find out if its the pump causes all of these mess

 

[tgl3]

I think the injector holes are about 0.008 inch. They would be more liable to clog up than let anything thro. Human hair is about 0.007 inch

Had a quick read about Carwood, about 100 employees, provide equipment for pretty high end clients. Seem to know their stuff. The reviews I read were very good (Yell). Pity OP's car had not been taken there first

All you guys should take the credit for this if you guys didn't suggest me to go down the garage I think they probably won't suggest to tow the car to Carwood and have it fixted there!

 

[Petrol Pete]

OP. Please find out from Carwood exactly what they think caused this and let us know .

 

[Tuercas viejas]

Just to chime in I would think that looking at that fuel sample which of course must have have lubricity I bet its in one word lacking.
Water in the fuel is the biggest issue ,and IT definitely has NO lubricity. (Ref my Ambo story )

With the high pressures involved & mechanical action requiring lubricity, its doesn't take long to start doing damage to the HPIP and injectors. Once sticking injector needles occur combustion gasses propagate up into the injectors making things inevitable . The engine stops injecting!
As for contingent damage, looking at the pictures they all seem to be intact.
I have seen them more often than not the with tips or sacs compactly blown off, injected into the engine as minute fragments and more often than not simply expelled.

In a former life working for a British Truck & Bus maker I have seen tips blown off of AmBac injectors (made in Italy) which had material/manufacturing defects and fragments ended up embedded in piston crowns, but that was rare.
Remember boiled down its only money, like bean or rice .
When its in short supply its expensive, but when its plentiful its cheap.

All the best
Tuercas Viejas

 

[tgl3]

Just to chime in I would think that looking at that fuel sample which of course must have have lubricity I bet its in one word lacking.
Water in the fuel is the biggest issue ,and IT definitely has NO lubricity. (Ref my Ambo story )

With the high pressures involved & mechanical action requiring lubricity, its doesn't take long to start doing damage to the HPIP and injectors. Once sticking injector needles occur combustion gasses propagate up into the injectors making things inevitable . The engine stops injecting!
As for contingent damage, looking at the pictures they all seem to be intact.
I have seen them more often than not the with tips or sacs compactly blown off, injected into the engine as minute fragments and more often than not simply expelled.

In a former life working for a British Truck & Bus maker I have seen tips blown off of AmBac injectors (made in Italy) which had material/manufacturing defects and fragments ended up embedded in piston crowns, but that was rare.
Remember boiled down its only money, like bean or rice .
When its in short supply its expensive, but when its plentiful its cheap.

All the best
Tuercas Viejas

Thank you Tuercas for your thoughts! I'll let the new garage know your thoughts (thoughts from an highly experienced technician friend!) and update you in due course

 

[E55BOF]

How much is a 2011 220 CLC on 140k miles actually worth? I'd do the sums before spending any more on the car.

 

[markjay]

How much is a 2011 220 CLC on 140k miles actually worth? I'd do the sums before spending any more on the car.

Is it a CLC (CL203)?

Or a facelift Coupe (C204)?