Electric car depreciation

[ToeKnee]

I’ll leave this here

View attachment 154703

Ah, their swan song......

 

[markjay]

A slightly different proposition I'd argue, not least because it's never been a major sector for European employment. It employs around 1.2million people globally, but mostly in leaf growing which occurs outside Europe.

By contrast, the automotive industry employs around 13million people throughout the EU - roughly 7% of all employment - and circa 800k in the UK. The social consequences of that employment disappearing by ceding it to China shouldn't be overlooked.

Agreed in principle, although industries provide livelihoods to a much larger circle then their own employees, that includes (for example) tobacconists who almost completely disappeared from our streets, or manufacturers and sellers of smoking paraphernalia, pipes, ash trays, or the people who made the carton packaging, etc etc.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

We have had small cars as a 2nd car in the household and I've always enjoyed driving them.

What a shame then that emissions regulations are rapidly reducing the choice. The Fiesta, VW UP, Audi A1 and Audi Q2 have already gone to mention just a few. MB are even dropping the A class. If I wanted to replace my C class with a premium smaller car in retirement there really isn't going to be much much to choose from.

Even the car manufacturers are becoming exasperated with effects of ill thought through policies that are forcing them to drop small cars.

Stop regulating us out of business and make a plan: Renault boss attacks politicians | Auto Express

There’s always the option of a low mileage immaculate earlier generation C Class.

Might sound flippant but each generation of every motor is that much chubbier than its predecessor.

And what benefit do we get? A volume control activated by waving a hand and bongs when we slip over the speed limit.

 

[Bellow]

What a shame then that emissions regulations are rapidly reducing the choice. The Fiesta, VW UP, Audi A1 and Audi Q2 have already gone to mention just a few. MB are even dropping the A class. If I wanted to replace my C class with a premium smaller car in retirement there really isn't going to be much much to choose from.

Another view point cites the shame of the manufacturers to meet those regulations affordably. Despite warnings from the 1960s (which included suggestions of alternatives that could contain NOx emissions) the industry put all its eggs in the basket (case) called diesel. Then took petrol engines down the same road.
That it cheated to hide its inadequacies which then led to it losing its voice is stupidity heaped on stupidity.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Ah, their swan song......

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

A slightly different proposition I'd argue, not least because it's never been a major sector for European employment. It employs around 1.2million people globally, but mostly in leaf growing which occurs outside Europe.

By contrast, the automotive industry employs around 13million people throughout the EU - roughly 7% of all employment - and circa 800k in the UK. The social consequences of that employment disappearing by ceding it to China shouldn't be overlooked.

Yes, a massive cost saving for the consumer. Affordable, clean motoring for all.

No different to what’s happened to the motorcycle and Tech industries “within our lifetimes.”

 

[Londonscottish]

A slightly different proposition I'd argue, not least because it's never been a major sector for European employment. It employs around 1.2million people globally, but mostly in leaf growing which occurs outside Europe.

By contrast, the automotive industry employs around 13million people throughout the EU - roughly 7% of all employment - and circa 800k in the UK. The social consequences of that employment disappearing by ceding it to China shouldn't be overlooked.

Once it's gone it's incredibly hard to get it back.

Never mind. We'll lose all the jobs and the tax revenues but we'll all get carbon-neutral stickers.

The rest of the world must be rolling around laughing.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Once it's gone it's incredibly hard to get it back.
Never mind. We'll lose all the jobs and the tax revenues but we'll all get carbon-neutral stickers.
The rest of the world must be rolling around laughing.

Slightly more complicated that that.

Our iPhones are still designed, marketed and sold by Westerners. Although obviously the Chinese domestic market is FAR more important than Europe and the States.

And UK Teslas may have been made in China, but they're still designed, marketed, sold and maintained by folks in the States, UK and the EU.

There's also still a lot of global demand for British and German built vehicles from the MINI to the Bentley

Are we really unhappy that we're not slipping a £5300 Leica into the pocket when we walk out each morning?

 

[ALFAitalia]

Apart from the other 110 countries that have agreed to the same carbon neutral targets of course....and the eight (admittedly generally small) counties that have already met that goal or are indeed carbon negative.

• Bhutan.
• Suriname.
• Panama. ...
• Guyana. ...
• Gabon. ...
• Niue. ...
• Comoros. ...
• Madagascar.

 

[st13phil]

No different to what’s happened to the motorcycle and Tech industries “within our lifetimes.”

The driver of the collapse of those industries in the UK wasn't external legislation though, it was myopic / incompetent management and lack of investment in product and plant/people (the same things that killed the British volume car makers).

Interestingly, the motorcycle industry in Europe has had a huge resurgence over the last couple of decades proving the old adage that if you offer the consumer the product(s) they want at what they consider to be a fair price, they'll buy. But with the exception of Triumph (funded by Bloor) and Piaggio, it has relied upon BMW and VAG to achieve that, the former with their own brand and the latter with Ducati.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The driver of the collapse of those industries in the UK wasn't external legislation though, it was myopic / incompetent management and lack of investment in product and plant/people (the same things that killed the British volume car makers).

Interestingly, the motorcycle industry in Europe has had a huge resurgence over the last couple of decades proving the old adage that if you offer the consumer the product(s) they want at what they consider to be a fair price, they'll buy. But with the exception of Triumph (funded by Bloor) and Piaggio, it has relied upon BMW and VAG to achieve that, the former with their own brand and the latter with Ducati.

Interesting view.

What's your explanation of the collapse of the European and American motorcycle manufacture?
(2.5 million units sold a year in Europe, more than three quarters of which are manufactured in Asia)

And the collapse of the European and American smartphone, tablet and laptop manufacture ?

And.... European and American furniture manufacture...

And .... European and American clothing manufacture....

And.....

We've taxed and regulated all these industries out of existence. Thank heavens for China stepping up to the plate.

Thank heavens for Pharma, Aerospace, Defence, and undergraduate education, eh ?

 

[markjay]

The driver of the collapse of those industries in the UK wasn't external legislation though, it was myopic / incompetent management and lack of investment in product and plant/people (the same things that killed the British volume car makers)....

Other views also available . :

The Rise & Fall Of The British Car Industry - CleanTechnica

The British car industry is on life support and the prospects for aid from the government are dim.

cleantechnica.com

"Thanks to ongoing quality issues and a failure to innovate (workers blamed management, management blamed the workers, and they all blamed the government), the British auto industry imploded and the Germans swept in to pick up the pieces."

How the UK Lost its Car Manufacturing Industry

Though it was a blow to national pride, the U.K. has learned to live without a British-owned motor industry. The U.S. could probably do the same.

www.cbsnews.com

"Output at overmanned plants was hit by constant labor disputes from the 1950s, making them unproductive and unprofitable. British firms lacked the flexibility to compete abroad even as European manufacturers began targeting the U.K. market with exports of right-hand drive models."


And the coup-de-grace (biased source, granted):

Brexit has killed the British car industry

The government has no plan to save a vanishing sector

www.theneweuropean.co.uk

"If you spoke to the industry experts, academics, and the companies themselves after the Brexit referendum result, they would tell you very quietly and off the record, that it meant that the British mass industry was a dead man walking."

 

[st13phil]

Other views also available

With the (spurious) exception of Brexit, those are exactly what I said: myopic / incompetent management, and failure to innovate (invest) in product / plant.

 

[markjay]

With the (spurious) exception of Brexit, those are exactly what I said: myopic / incompetent management, and failure to innovate (invest) in product / plant.

I was referring to the fact that the workforce were not without blame, either....

 

[st13phil]

What's your explanation of the collapse of the European and American motorcycle manufacture?
(2.5 million units sold a year in Europe, more than three quarters of which are manufactured in Asia)

The general case was that the European manufacturers failed to innovate / invest in manufacturing the products the consumers wanted in the 1960's / 1970's, while the Japanese (especially) did. Similar story in America. Nothing to do with legislation.

 

[ChipChop]

Apart from the other 110 countries that have agreed to the same carbon neutral targets of course....and the eight (admittedly generally small) counties that have already met that goal or are indeed carbon negative.

• Bhutan.
• Suriname.
• Panama. ...
• Guyana. ...
• Gabon. ...
• Niue. ...
• Comoros. ...
• Madagascar.

Some very very poor countries on that list. What a future to look forward to.

 

[st13phil]

I was referring to the fact that the workforce were not without blame, either....

An old adage I subscribe to is that a company's management (generally) gets the industrial relations it deserves.

Back in the 1960's and 1970's it wasn't unusual for management in British car plants to cynically take actions that resulted in walkouts by the workforce so that they could stop lines in order to rectify supply and manufacturing issues without having to pay the workforce to be idle. And then they wondered why the workforce became increasingly militant?

 

[markjay]

An old adage I subscribe to is that a company's management (generally) gets the industrial relations it deserves.

Back in the 1960's and 1970's it wasn't unusual for management in British car plants to cynically take actions that resulted in walkouts by the workforce so that they could stop lines in order to rectify supply and manufacturing issues without having to pay the workforce to be idle. And then they wondered why the workforce became increasingly militant?

While bad relationships between workers and management was obviously a significant factor, the fact remains that low productivity per-hour-worked in the UK compared to other Western countries became a growing problem in the seventies.

Interesting article here:

Chart of the month: lower productivity is a legacy of 1970s Britain - Radix Think Tank

radixuk.org

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The general case was that the European manufacturers failed to innovate / invest in manufacturing the products the consumers wanted in the 1960's / 1970's, while the Japanese (especially) did. Similar story in America. Nothing to do with legislation.

So you think that salary levels, employee taxation, social security payments, health and safety regulations, planning restrictions, trade union rights, the Government's technical education system, development incentives and corporation tax rates weren't factors?

"We" (the UK, Europe and the States) have off-shored manufacturing to South East Asia. For good reasons.

 

[st13phil]

So you think that salary levels, employee taxation, social security payments, health and safety regulations, planning restrictions, trade union rights, the Government's technical education system, development incentives and corporation tax rates weren't factors?

No, I don’t. And I didn’t say that they don’t.

My point is about direct legislation regarding the products the automotive sector is allowed to produce & sell, not about the indirect effects of social & taxation policies.

BTW, regarding “off shoring” manufacturing, my experience is that you are forever chasing the next cheapest destination. It works for some sectors / products much better than others, and as events over the last four years have shown, it creates vulnerabilities that are not understood until they crystallise.