Has UK enough generating power for electric cars , heat pumps and all other requirements

[markjay]

There's no "personally" in it, given the "current" pricing. The tariffs are out there for all to see. Public charging is much more expensive than home charging, for good reason: an extra 15% VAT and routine commercial operating costs.

So much so that it undermines the "economics" of first generation of hybrids, beyond that initial company car tax break.

It varies.

Home electricity currently costs around 17p per kWh, or 12p off peak (in some cases even 7p), so quite cheap.

In my area, I pay 24p to charge my EV on a slow charger (5.5kW). The cost rises with the charging speed, and peaks at 74p at an Ionity super-charger.

At 24p, my cost per mile is one quarter that of my petrol W204.

So it really depends on the charging speed. If you always use super charger and charge at top speed (which is not recommended for the battery, BTW), then you will pay roughly the same as an ICE car.

EDIT: don't fogert zero VED, and nearly no annual servicing costs, for EVs.

 

[CoopsSA]

Personally, I think that those who can, will avoid public chargers due to the high cost of electricity.

For home chargers, there are smart charger that are linked to your electricity provider's price plan and will automatically start and stop the charging according to the cheapest off-peak tariff.

And this resolves the capacity issue, because the electricity provider's lowest tariff will always be applied to times of low demand, and so by using a smart charger not only will the car's owner get cheapest rates, but also the car will only be charged when demand for electricity in the area is low.

Not every problem we have can be resolved via the application of technology, but managing demand on the grid certainly can be.

But with the current utility price increases, those super off peak tariffs aren't available at the minute. Octopus Go was 4.5p off peak but that's now gone up to 7.5p, but their standard unit rate associated with it is now 30.23p. My current provider flat rate is 15.93p so makes very little sense in my transferring just to be able to charge my EV off peak. Think I worked out I could save £62 per year in doing so.

 

[markjay]

But with the current utility price increases, those super off peak tariffs aren't available at the minute. Octopus Go was 4.5p off peak but that's now gone up to 7.5p, but their standard unit rate associated with it is now 30.23p. My current provider flat rate is 15.93p so makes very little sense in my transferring just to be able to charge my EV off peak. Think I worked out I could save £62 per year in doing so.

True, and if energy prices continue to go up, then the savings on driving an EV will become even smaller (unless fuel at petrol stations also goes up in price, obviously).

But as things stand, it is still overall much cheaper to run and to maintain an EV than an ICE car, though this only applies to those who can cross the initial hurdle of the purchase price (or lease cost), at least until more EVs trickle-down to the second-hand car market.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

It varies.

Home electricity currently costs around 17p per kWh, or 12p off peak (in some cases even 7p), so quite cheap.

In my area, I pay 24p to charge my EV on a slow charger (5.5kW). The cost rises with the charging speed, and peaks at 74p at an Ionity super-charger.

At 24p, my cost per mile is one quarter that of my petrol W204.

So it really depends on the charging speed. If you always use super charger and charge at top speed (which is not recommended for the battery, BTW), then you will pay roughly the same as an ICE car.

EDIT: don't fogert zero VED, and nearly no annual servicing costs, for EVs.

So, as I said, “ The tariffs are out there for all to see. Public charging is much more expensive than home charging”

“So much so that it undermines the "economics" of first generation of hybrids, beyond that initial company car tax break.”

As reported elsewhere on here, once you include the cost of electricity, most C350e’s are giving no better than the equivalent of 50mpg, which makes them a poor financial choice for anyone outside of central london, unless you’re on the company car tax break.

And let’s be honest, most first generation plug in hybrids like the C350e and 330e are getting mpg in the 40’s because they aren’t being charged every night because people can’t be bothered or don’t have access to the right power source.

EV’s are the future, for sure. Like word processing, it’s an easy decision. Just don’t expect the first generation machines to be cheap, slick or around for long.

 

[markjay]

So, as I said, “ The tariffs are out there for all to see. Public charging is much more expensive than home charging”

“So much so that it undermines the "economics" of first generation of hybrids, beyond that initial company car tax break.”

As reported elsewhere on here, once you include the cost of electricity, most C350e’s are giving no better than the equivalent of 50mpg, which makes them a poor financial choice for anyone outside of central london, unless you’re on the company car tax break.

And let’s be honest, most first generation plug in hybrids like the C350e and 330e are getting mpg in the 40’s because they aren’t being charged every night because people can’t be bothered or don’t have access to the right power source.

EV’s are the future, for sure. Like word processing, it’s an easy decision. Just don’t expect the first generation machines to be cheap, slick or around for long.

View attachment 123315

View attachment 123314

Agreed, another example is the ground breaking iPhone 3, great device in its day but you would want to keep it for too long.

Which is I would personally recommend getting EVs on a lease, instead of purchasing them outright (even setting aside the BIK benefit for business users). You run it for two to four years, then get a new one. The technology is still evolving very rapidly at this early stage.

Buy this is obviously a different mind set to the thinking of old, where you bought a new Volvo or a Saab (or a Mercedes) on the premise that it will be good for the next 20 years.

 

[Dryce]

But as things stand, it is still overall much cheaper to run and to maintain an EV than an ICE car,

Is it?

We used have people buying a car X instead of car Y because it got better mpg and was cheaper to run while completely ignoring the issue of depreciation which might well be twon or three times the total annual fuel cost.

If your lifestyle says that a £40K+ MB is affordable to run then maybe a £40K+ EV will seem cheaper in some way.

But reality check. If you want low cost motoring outside of commuting or residence in a pay-for ULEZs and the like then the ICE will currently *always* win on cost. There simply isn't the EV option to compete with the genuinely cheap ICE models at the moment.

Unless you can demonstrate to me that something like a Leaf (which I consider to be pretty cheap and nasty) will cost run less to run than a Dacia (which I consider cheap and cheerful) I call you out on the statement I quoted above.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Buy this is obviously a different mind set to the thinking of old, where you bought a new Volvo or a Saab (or a Mercedes) on the premise that it will be good for the next 20 years.

And, let's be blunt about this, we're going to see some "paradigm changes" that no-one's currently expecting.

Going back to Word Processing, that automated all that old fashioned typists and typing nonsense, and then rolled on to moving "typing" back to the originators. Which was fine....

But then the thing blew up the whole "typed document" thing and re-engineered all the ways of processing and passing data. No more "take a Memo," or "letters to clients."

And we're going to see the same thing happen to our 33 million cars. More car hailing, car hire, better public transport, electric scooters, electric bikes, working from home and satellite "offices," and "maybe" some different aspirations for business and leisure travel.

I can't believe that we'll "just" electrify the 33 million.

.

 

[markjay]

Is it?

We used have people buying a car X instead of car Y because it got better mpg and was cheaper to run while completely ignoring the issue of depreciation which might well be twon or three times the total annual fuel cost.

If your lifestyle says that a £40K+ MB is affordable to run then maybe a £40K+ EV will seem cheaper in some way.

But reality check. If you want low cost motoring outside of commuting or residence in a pay-for ULEZs and the like then the ICE will currently *always* win on cost. There simply isn't the EV option to compete with the genuinely cheap ICE models at the moment.

Unless you can demonstrate to me that something like a Leaf (which I consider to be pretty cheap and nasty) will cost run less to run than a Dacia (which I consider cheap and cheerful) I call you out on the statement I quoted above.

You are correct regarding depreciation being the single biggest cost when owning a new car. And buying a new EV now does carry the potential risk of a high level of depreciation, simply because EVs are relatively new on the market and there's probably insufficient long-term data to predict residuals with any degree of accuracy.

Which is why I think that leasing an EV, or any form of deal that has GFV, it the way forward at this time, because it transfers the depreciation risk to the finance provider.

And, if EVs do prove to depreciate faster than comparable ICE cars, lease deals will become more expensive in future. My EV is on a 4 year business lease, so I know exactly how much it will cost me until I replace it.

And with lease deals currently being in the same ball park as similarly-priced ICE cars, it was a no brainer for me. Electricity is cheap and there's hardly any servicing costs, not even discs and pads to replace.

Then, there's zero VED, no Congestion Charge and nearly free parking (in London), and finally the cherry on the cake is 1% BIK (for business users). But these savings will only apply to those who are quick to get an EV in the near future, as the EV incentives are likely to be withdrawn over time.

As for the Leaf and the Duster, I really don't know, but the lease on my IONIQ 5 was cheaper than that of a GLC300, which is the nearest MB model.

Where you do have a point, is that there's fierce completion in the £30+ market, which means great deals for customers, but at the lower-end of the market very few manufacturers bother to make cheap no-frills EVs, for whatever reason.

 

[markjay]

...I can't believe that we'll "just" electrify the 33 million...

And I don't think we should, either.

My view has always been (as I repeatedly mention here...) that EVs are great, BUT we should have less cars, and drive them less, rather than simply replace ICE with EV.

And while EVs are also great in removing harmful exhaust emissions from urban areas, they will do nothing to help the planet if we produce and use them in large numbers.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

And we're going to see the same thing happen to our 33 million cars. More car hailing, car hire, better public transport, electric scooters, electric bikes, working from home and satellite "offices," and "maybe" some different aspirations for business and leisure travel.

I can't believe that we'll "just" electrify the 33 million.

That’s why for some time now car manufacturers have referred to the future of mobility rather than the future of car manufacturing. Private car ownership is I’ll be much less common in our future than our present. Younger generations are already seeing fewer reasons to own a car or even drive. Times have been changing for a while, although many just don’t realise it.

 

[Markw70]

It varies.

Home electricity currently costs around 17p per kWh, or 12p off peak (in some cases even 7p), so quite cheap.

In my area, I pay 24p to charge my EV on a slow charger (5.5kW). The cost rises with the charging speed, and peaks at 74p at an Ionity super-charger.

At 24p, my cost per mile is one quarter that of my petrol W204.

So it really depends on the charging speed. If you always use super charger and charge at top speed (which is not recommended for the battery, BTW), then you will pay roughly the same as an ICE car.

EDIT: don't fogert zero VED, and nearly no annual servicing costs, for EVs.

There was a report on the radio and online last week about the price some areas are charging for ev on street charging, and the most expensive are up to £4 per kWh or £240 to fully charge an average ev.

 

[markjay]

There was a report on the radio and online last week about the price some areas are charging for ev on street charging, and the most expensive are up to £4 per kWh or £240 to fully charge an average ev.

That is shocking... daylight robbery. Should be reported to Trading Standards. I am guessing that this is in a rural area with only one public charging station for miles and miles? Even so, that's appalling.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

That is shocking... daylight robbery. Should be reported to Trading Standards. I am guessing that this is in a rural area with only one public charging station for miles and miles? Even so, that's appalling.

I’d guess the reverse: that high “charging rates” are more likely in expensive, ultra urban” cities, like the £10 pint of beer., or where there’s a monopoly or shortage of supply, especially around cost of land, like the rip off rates for fuel charged in motorway service areas.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Times have been changing for a while, although many just don’t realise it.

I know we realise it, I’m just pointing out that most don’t.

A good example is “Zip Car hire” which means I can walk out of LHR and immediately book a new VW Golf for 45 minutes to drive myself home, at a cost of £15 instead of taking a taxi for £60. A useful tool to reduce the need for a second car, or even a first car, for city dwellers.

And again, this changes what we might want from the vehicle we own, ,which might “need” to be less, or more, practical, depending on what we’re doing.

 

[alabbasi]

I think not but really think I am incorrect in my assumption.

Of course not, but that's not the intention. Like with the diesel policy in the late 90's, the plan is to tax the majority and make it sound like it's for a public service.
Once everybody converts, they'll tell you that it's actually not that good for the environment and you should buy something else. Hydrogen or bicycles maybe.

What goes around comes around.

 

[markjay]

...Once everybody converts, they'll tell you that it's actually not that good for the environment and you should buy something else. Hydrogen or bicycles maybe.

What goes around comes around.

1. Correct, they'll tell you that you need you buy an electric vehicle.

2. Er... they already did.

 

[Deleted member 159894]

Has it been a whole week since the last EV circular discussion already?

 

[markjay]

Has it been a whole week since the last EV circular discussion already?

How can you have enough of a good thing...?

 

[Markw70]

That is shocking... daylight robbery. Should be reported to Trading Standards. I am guessing that this is in a rural area with only one public charging station for miles and miles? Even so, that's appalling.

It was on the Dorset coast and in the Cotswolds, that charged up to £4 per kwh. For anyone that’s interested search online for most expensive councils for ev charging.

 

[markjay]

The most expensive I could find online is 70p per kWh from Ionity 350kW super chargers, of which there are 14 in the UK. And even so, it's on PAYG tariff, but with a subscription the cost goes down to 40p per kWh.

Which electric cars can use Ionity ultra-fast 350kW chargers?

The Ionity network of 350kW ultra-rapid chargers is the fastest way to recharge your EV. But which cars can take advantage of the technology?

www.motoringelectric.com

But the prices available online only cover charging networks, so a privately-owned single charger won't show in the price comparisons. £4 per kWh?? I am guessing that someone somewhere got very very greedy....