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How safe are ......?

andy_k said:
with 2 kids, a dog and me being a musician I NEED the space but I choose to drive an estate car

hmmmmm that one was pretty well documented and has been the subject of at least one major documentary. Suddenly it doesn'y look quite so crazy does it?

I would have thought that it made the news in America as well

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/nixon/

Andy

Hi Andy,
Your point about the 2 children, dog, musical instruments, and perhaps partner is very valid. When 4x4 owners state that they have purchased the vehicle because they need the 'space' is, "Tosh" :rolleyes: Why don't they be honest and simply say they prefer the looks\style of their 4x4. I have yet to hear of any 4x4 that is going to give more 'usable' space over the larger estate cars.

Unfortunately your other points are not as convincing, thirty year old references, do they still genuinely apply?

It would appear that you might have witnessed an awful 'incident' involving a 4x4? Please, please do not think I am trying to be sarcastic. I am NOT. Why though try to ban a specific type of vehicle? What about those really ugly Fiat 'things' that were voted car of the year??? Three people could sit side by side, they were big, (bigger thhan quite a few 4x4's) ugly, and looked totally rediculous, but that is just my opinion. They were voted car of the year, so some people liked them.

In my own experience 4x4 drivers are certainly no worse than the average road user. 'Boy racers', driving their hatchback cars with music blaring, (cannot therefore hear other road users). 'Boy racers' with heavily tinted FRONT windows, that obviously have restricted visibility at night or in poor visibility. 'Boy racers' spinning the wheels of their cars as they pull away from traffic lights. Should ALL teenage male drivers be tarred with the same brush?

This is still an excellent thread where the point is being debated in a constructive and friendly manner. Long may it continue. Finally the neighbour that drives the ML55AMG uses it for EXACTLY the reasons you have outlined. Taking the children to school and doing the shopping!!!! Hubby has a de-badged large S-class.

At 10-30am this morning Sky News is debating your very point and I for one will be watching it with interest

Take care,
John
 
I don't know if any of you read the article in the Financial Mail regarding Chelsea tractors. It said that recent figures released by eSure and Churchill had indicated that this category of vehicle was involved in 25% more accidents than family cars and their claims were on average 30% higher.
 
MainMan said:
I don't know if any of you read the article in the Financial Mail regarding Chelsea tractors. It said that recent figures released by eSure and Churchill had indicated that this category of vehicle was involved in 25% more accidents than family cars and their claims were on average 30% higher.

[A US study found SUVs are 20% less likely to be involved in an accident.]

:) :)

In Torquay one week-end there was a major disturbance at a night club. The club was badly damaged, Police were called in from nearby towns to help quell the disturbance.

On the Monday morning a senior Police Officer stated that it had been a quiet week-end with only two arrests!!!!!!! Violence on our streets is more a fear than a reality???

The disturbance at the night club started with a coach load of 'stag night' celebrators fighting with the door staff. Local revellers then joined in, both for and against the door staff. The violence was so bad that Police spent a great deal of time seperating all sides and restoring the peace, but only had the oppurtunity to arrest two people. A large number of victims including four Police Officers were treated at the local hospital. Two arrest over a week-end did NOT equate to reality, but you could not argue with the statistical figures. Two arrests = quite week-end :devil: :confused:

Statistics :devil: :mad:

The debate on Sky about 4x4's is so far mainly in relaton to the damage or injury that a 4x4 can inflict on other road user's. Something that is worth considering. I once witnessed a little boy run out into a main road. He was hit by an oncoming car and fortunately was forced onto the bonnet of the vehicle. (not a pleasant incident, but if it had been a 4x4 this incident would have had fatal consequences). Yes, he came off the bonnet onto the road, and yes he was badly hurt.

Or....... Could this happen to you on the school run???????

The windscreen cracked and the elephant came forward again, crashing into the door. His tusks ripped through the metal, and if they hadn’t been broken they would have stuck right through my legs.

He flipped the car over and I tried to wedge myself between the roof and floor. The windows were smashed and I didn’t want to fall out and get killed. But with the car on its roof, the elephant had had enough and walked off. I was glad I was in the Land Cruiser — had it been a lighter car I would have been in more bother.

Extract from Mark Tennant - My First Crash


Regards,
John
 
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Shude said:
Classic:

:)
One of the biggest misconceptions about SUVs is that "they have a lot of room in them"! As Top Gear pointed out recently, estate cars are cheaper and have more room in them. SUVs might have more VERTICAL room so the stats make it look like it's roomier, but in fact most stuff needs the HORIZONTAL dimension and that's where the SUVs tend to lose out. Once you peel away the chrome bars, the huge bumpers, the chunky wheel arches and the exterior spare wheel what you find is an average-sized car on stilts! :)

I do actually use the 4x4 for the same reason, 2 kids and I'm a musician too. Yes, estates are generally better horizontally. However, between myself and band members, we have 3 large guitar amps (Marshall half-cabs) which will only fit in a 4x4 or van. So, since I cannot afford to run 2 cars and a van, one of them has to be a 4x4 or people carrier (yuk).
 
andy_k said:
with 2 kids, a dog and me being a musician I NEED the space but I choose to drive an estate car

Yes, and that is the key here. CHOICE

a quick count up at our kids school on Friday showed 9 "normal cars" and 14 medium to large 4WD (including the aforementioned Toyota) - all bar one absolutely spotless and sporting road tyres and all diesels none having travelled more than 5 miles along the roads

Again, I think you are mixing 2 issues here. They have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. You still have not explained what the school run has to do with the 4x4. The fact that these women CHOOSE a 4x4, has nothing to do with their (and here I agree) stupid descision to drive their kids to school. Driving your kids to school in those circumstances is stupid no matter the vehicle.

They are not more of a hazzard than a truck - because they are a truck

Thanks for making my own point for me. There is no difference.

trouble is trucks are normally driven by professional drivers and not used as weapons by their owners because they feel "safe" in them.

Many are driven by professionals, but like car drivers, there are many who show no regard for fellow road users. However this is no reason to ban them.

We have had mentioned in this thread and others

longer stopping distance than cars
potential roll over in accident/impact
poor handling
larger blindspots
etc etc

You can say this about any truck. So what does this have to do with 4x4s in particular? If you can't handle the vehicle, you shouldn't be driving it. But pleas don't ban them for those who can.

backing off is all well and good but what about when you've got one of them tailgating you?

Same applies for if a car or truck is on your tail. Move over when safe to do so.

hmmmmm that one was pretty well documented and has been the subject of at least one major documentary. Suddenly it doesn'y look quite so crazy does it?

Yes, but this has nothing to do with fuel usage. And anyway, alot of people were against seatbelts and have since been proven wrong. It's also funny that they mention the Pinto in that piece since ithad one of the worst saftey records. (they kept exploding when rear-ended) :crazy: Also, it is common knowlege that big business influences government on both sides of the pond. But this does not make the next leap of faith into believing that there is some great cospiracy to get us driving 4x4s.

I would have thought that it made the news in America as well

Forgive me but I was born in 71, so I missed those news flashes. :-)

(originally built on the truck production lines), required little or no safety measures (see the Richard Nixon article and many similar ones), basically they carried a huge per vehicle profit and nobody and nothing was going to get in the way of sales

I'm sorry but I don't see the link here.
 
Hi,

It's fairly obvious to me that as far as 4 x 4's are concerned there are no shades of grey :rolleyes: . You're either for 'em or agin 'em, there obviously 'ain't' no common ground.

Mainman: which edition of the financial mail was that article? I'd certainly like to read it. I have e-mailed both Insurance companies to confirm this data.

However I'll reiterate why I bought my 4 x4: (ML does has (some) off road capability but it's certainly NOT as good as Landrover etc. i.e. came 9 out of 10 in a recent off-roader comparison)

I find driving my ML more relaxing (see recent thread re my loan of an E270Di). Low (relative) depreciation was also a major factor (it's my 'dough' not some companies etc.)

I like the high(er) driving position cos I feel it's safer, especially for me and mine (and given the quality of driving seen on the roads nowadays this seems a sensible reason IMO).

I can easily accomodate 1 'tall' dog (who would end up with a cricked neck in an estate), 3 suitcases etc. and the family and travel long distances in comfort. I have also been able to take numerous items to the local dump etc. which I certainly could't have in many other vehicles etc.

On several occasions I've traversed flooded roads with impunity etc.

I've averaged 28mpg, which 'ain't too bad (IMO). I commute to London etc.

I certainly 'ain't' going off road (would not have got ML if were) but benefit from 4wd/esp etc. (especially in wet).

I have not been involved, caused or seen any accidents relating to the presence of my vehicle etc.

In other words I chose this particular style of 'flexible' vehicle to suit my 'flexible' needs. How other make their choices is down to them ;) .

The above statements are deliberately defensive in nature which I feel is in keeping with the overall tone of this debate :rolleyes: .

I don't believe the motor industry foisted 4 x 4's on the public however :eek: . Rather the reverse, the public liked 4 x 4's :D hence the motor industry responded. Who would have believed there would be a 4 x 4 Porsche (and it appears a 4 x 4 for Jaguar (in 2009) is in the pipeline).

My original point was are 4 x 4's less safe etc.? and the paucity of 'hard' data is reflected in the principally rhetorical nature of most of the comments ;) .

Cheers,
 
Given the nature of free choice, I can't see how anybody could say that they are forced into buying a 4x4?

I would have thought that the contrary would apply. In this day and age, the excessive tax on fuel and tax loading for larger engine vehicles (not just 4x4s I must add) would surely be a sign of discouragement instead.

If MainMan's statistics are correct, surely these would be re-inforced with appropriate premiums? Would this not make the whole vision of owning a 4x4 seem even more daunting?

Despite this, they sell millions of the things. Therefore, people are willing to put up with the extra cost, and despite all the discouragement, we love 'em! :eek:

I can't see why these pro-4x4 vs anti-4x4 arguments keep on popping up.

At the end of the day, all arguments and viewpoints have been discussed (argued!) at great length, and everybody is aware of how people feel!

One thing will always stand true:

No matter how much anybody hates them, tough!

They are fully legal to own and use, and as much as some people dislike them, the people who are using them are not doing anything wrong.

It is their choice to spend their own money on whatever they like, be it sports cars (who needs 150 MPH+ cars on the UK roads!), 4x4s (95% of which are never used off road!), people carriers (again, how many people use ALL 7/8 seats all the time!) large engined prestige cars (is a 6 litre engine really necessary!) , motorbikes (most need no emissions testing, and again, why not ban sports bikes whilst we are at it!) sporty hot hatches (probably higher accident rates than the 4x4s, and obviously designed to be driven irresponsibly!) or whatever!

My real point is this:

People are allowed (by law) to drive whatever type of vehicle they like, as long as it is legal.

Don't critiscise people for making a choice that they are freely allowed to.

If you have a problem with the law, then take it up with your local MP or whatever! :)

Cheers,

Will
 
Dieter said:
Hi,

It's fairly obvious to me that as far as 4 x 4's are concerned there are no shades of grey :rolleyes: . You're either for 'em or agin 'em, there obviously 'ain't' no common ground.

Oiii ;) I can take them or leave them (remember Jimmi Hendrix 'Live and let live) ;)

Dieter said:
I can easily accomodate 1 'tall' dog (who would end up with a cricked neck in an estate), 3 suitcases etc. and the family and travel long distances in comfort. I have also been able to take numerous items to the local dump etc. which I certainly could't have in many other vehicles etc.

Do not necessarily agree here though. Yes there is unquestionably MORE headroom in a 4x4. If like myself you carry a dog in the rear of the vehicle they tend NOT to stand up whilst travelling as they are 'relatively' unsteady, compared to preferably laying down, or sitting. In the ML it is more difficult for a 'longer' (usually length and height go together with the odd exceptions of sausage or corgi dogs) It is far easier for a large dog to manoeuvre in an estate. (I am perfectly happy to accept that your dog can easily turn in your vehicle, I am simply pointing out that there is FAR more floor space for a dog in an estate)

Dieter said:
I certainly 'ain't' going off road (would not have got ML if were) but benefit from 4wd/esp etc. (especially in wet).

Once again this is leaving you open to criticism. Driving in wet conditions is not the same as driving in mud, snow, or slippery conditions. If you drive to fast in the wet, you will aquaplane. Driving in the wet has more to do with choice of tyre. A wide tyre, especially low profile (high performance car tyre) is far more likely to aquaplane compared to a narrow tyre. Then of course you have tyre tread. Would you agree that tyre development over the years has improved. Also it has improved more so for high performance cars giving them greatewr grip, and better displacement of water. Compared to the average car, your ML will have better grip in some conditions, but I cannot imagine either yourself or the majority of road users taking advantage of that grip. No to me it is still all about choice, and you should NOT have to justify that choice to anyone accept yourself and your good lady. You like your vehicle and good luck to you sir.

The points I have deleted are ones that I totally agree with.

Regards,
John
 
Dieter said:
It's fairly obvious to me that as far as 4 x 4's are concerned there are no shades of grey :rolleyes: . You're either for 'em or agin 'em, there obviously 'ain't' no common ground.

I would refer the honourable gentleman to one of my previous posts on this thread:

Flyer said:
Take them or leave them. If I had the money, I would definitely have one on the drive (too big to fit in the garage :) ). They are extremely useful and as a keen mountain biker and useless sailor, the ability to load up with all the kit for a weekend away doing both is very attractive. But I don't think I could cope with one as my only car ...

But, probably, those that hate them will always hate them. Interesting discussion though :)

We used to have a Discovery V8 on the hire fleet. Did about 10mpg and was absolutely gutless - having an automatic gearbox didn't help :rolleyes: . I took it on the NetworkQ rally a couple of times. This was before the corporates got hold of "RallyGB" and you could still trek off deep into Welsh forests, where you would normally have to park up, splodge through the trees with the hordes for a couple of miles, watch the action and then wearily retrace your steps. With the Disco though, we could simply drive through the rock-strewn streams, up the steep, muddy hill and park practically at the stage, enjoying a hot coffee. Jump out, walk five minutes and enjoy. Quick exit as well for the next stage. No way could you do that in any other vehicle. The looks from the other spectators ranged from "jammy b*st%rds" to "jumped-up t*ss£rs", but did we care? :D (I hasten to add that I have done the rally many times in a car that you did have to park up and then walk for miles).

Mrs Miggins taking her two children to school five minutes down the road in her Land Cruiser may then be driving 30 minutes to work. On Saturday, Mr M may be a marshall on hard-to-get-to rally stages, or towing his powerboat down to Abersoch for the weekend. Sunday afternoons are spent cleaning the car/truck/devilspawn ready for Mrs M to use it to take the kids to school on Monday ...

You just never know :)
 
I've watched this thread with interest, as I have seen carbon copies of the arguments on several other forums over the last year or two. Personally think there have been some good points made, and that Will summed these up quite nicely, however must admit a degree of self-interest since my wife owns a 4x4, and I have got one on order myself. (Nope, we don't necessarily need two 4x4's in the family, so maybe I will end up changing my wifes car at some point in the future...)

I spent a long time choosing my next car, and did think to consider an estate car. To be honest, in many ways I would much rather have bought an E55 Estate, or similar, than a 4x4 because I do agree that 4x4's are by no means perfect and that there are downsides to owning them. To try and explain my rationale in buying one, I will attempt to list the reasons why I made that decision, which obviously anyone is perfectly within their rights to disagree with, but ultimately it is my requirement that I am filling, and as with any individual I probably have more insight into what would suit me than someone else could entirely understand..

Space - yep, an estate car can fit longer items in, but I wanted taller items! Like Dieter, I have dogs, one of which in particular is too tall to sit up in an estate (ironically, the smaller one chooses to lie down, and the large one insists on sitting up throughout a journey and looking out of the window with interest for hours on end!). Believe it or not, but I have actually test driven several estates, and one of the things I insisted on was taking the car back to my house and putting my dogs in the back (doesn't really impress the saleman when he then has to vacuum out all the dog hair from his nice plush boot!). For this requirement a 4x4 is genuinely more suitable for me, and this was a key factor for me. In addition, to get the all round room of a largish 4x4 (especially rear leg room), means going up to E Class / 5 Series type cars, which are actually longer than most 4x4's, where I would start to struggle to get them in my garage. I actually prefer C Class / 3 Series type cars in general, but when there is a tall driver there really is bugger all room in the back!

Safety - contentious one this, but ultimately I feel it is my responsibility to protect my family (including dogs) as best as I can. This is why I insist on buying a car with a high safety rating (the vehicle I am buying was rated as the safest vehicle ever tested by the NHTSA - American crash testing authority. Pedestrian safety is one that has been brought up here a few times, however my wifes 4x4 actually has the highest safety rating out of any car (or 4x4) tested by EuroNCAP, so maybe we'd be best not to generalise, and if someone has an issue over pedestrian safety would be best targetting unsafe vehicles in general, rather than 4x4's. In fact, as I understand it, one of the major factors in pedestrian safety is how much give there is in the bonnet, so that their head does not hit something hard in an impact - the biggest culprit here is not 4x4's for obvious reasons (the engines tend to be sunk down low to improve the COG, and there is more room in terms of height to have the engine lower relative to the bonnet) but is actually low sleek sportcars, which struggle to fit a largish engine under the bonnet (thus domes, etc, to clear the engine). I believe there are new rules coming in around now that state that all new vehicle designs must have x inches of room between engine and bonnet, which will give MB designers an interesting challenge for the next SL.... The safety factor close to my heart was that of my dogs - I have seen a new model Volvo V70 estate that had been rear-ended at low speed: the crumple zone had done it's job very well, in that the rear end up to around the axle was pushed right in. Unfortunately, that is where my dogs would be sitting, so I insisted on a high floor sill to protect them against that.

Offroad ability - I actually find it quite funny that people go on about seeing clean 4x4's as they NEVER go off road. Another way of looking at it, is that they sometimes might go offroad, and at other times they might have washed it??? We tend to go on holidays where normal cars would not cope (I know, I tried it once in my C280 when we were between 4x4's - not a success story). We tend to do this kind of holiday maybe 3 or 4 times a year, along with several days out throughout the year where we end up in forests, lake shores, and so on, where we can walk the dogs - since I did not want to run an additional car for those times throughout the year, I wanted one car that could do everything I wanted. Incidentally, you'd be amazed what even a soft-roader can do offroad, regardless of what the magazines might say. I don't deny the superiority of a Defender, but anyone who went on the 4x4 Experience at this years road show would have seen what even the weedy ones were capable of - I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't tried it.

Traction - if MB or BMW brought some of their 4wd versions of 4Matic E Classes and so on to this country then I might have made a different choice, but they don't so my choices were limited somewhat. I tend to like reasonably powerful and comfortable cars, which normally ends up meaning RWD. After yet another year of slipping around with the traction control light flashing (admittedly the M3 might not have been a great choice for this!! :eek: ) I fancied getting a car with 4wd again (used to have a Sierra 4x4 many moons ago - was soooo much better than RWD when things got slippy). Looked at Audi's but they didn't have anything suitable (A4/S4 was too small, not convinced by the design or likely depreciation of the new A6). Thought about a Lamborghini or 911TT but the wife didn't think there was enough room!! :D Looked at Subaru but didn't like them - probably looked at some others, but there aren't many choices out there any more. Did think about putting winter tyres on a RWD, but the conditions are too variable in this country for me to compromise with the reduced dry grip for the times when it isn't raining / icey / snowy throughout the winter months. I do a fair few miles, including many far too early starts, so swapping the wheels over several times is not really something I would end up doing.

There are various other factors (high seating position, ease of getting baby seats in and out without screwing my back up even more than it is now) that I won't go into, since you're all going to be bored reading this essay, and my fingers are hurting now. I do believe that people make choices that suit THEM - just because others don't realise, agree with, or understand those choices doesn't make it the wrong choice. If someone buys a Ferrari and loons around in it at 180mph he'll get blasted for being stupid and irresponsible, if they do 69.5mph people will say why did he/she bother buying it? Maybe it was to pose, maybe they enjoy driving it on a track twice a year which the daily moaners don't get to see, maybe it was just to fulfill a dream - who is to say this is wrong? It doesn't really hurt anyone else (unless he is stupid and kills someone - but a car, hammer, knife, book, or remote control could potentially all kill someone, but it would down to the human factor, it wouldn't be the objects fault). To my mind, the same is true with 4x4's - there are far too many people in the world being judgemental and thinking that they know best for other people. If you don't like 4x4's, sports cars, pink cars, paisley ties, then simply don't buy one - why condone someone else for making a different decision?

I will now get off my high horse (see - I like the high seating position!!! :p )

p.s. Does this now make me even less liked on here? Had a BMW, AND likes 4x4's!!
 
Big Ed said:
loads ...

clap.gif

Well said ...
 
Going to pick my extra tall chocolate lab up from kennels now in my BIG, HIGH, WIDE, BADLY DRIVEN, HORSE BOX TOWING, MIDDLE LANE HOGGING, NON INDICATING, explorer :p

Drove 440 miles to Wales and back this weekend to help my fiancee move out of her old house. We did two tip runs and have brought back a house full of clothes, shoes and furniture. You women were all millipedes in previous lives - you don't need that many shoes :eek:

I think we managed to cause about 7 accidents on the M4 and one on the A34 through thoughtless driving and pure lack of awareness of any other road user - especially those squat, pokey little non 4x4s that get under your wheels sometimes :devil:

M
 
Mozzer said:
I think we managed to cause about 7 accidents on the M4 and one on the A34 through thoughtless driving and pure lack of awareness of any other road user - especially those squat, pokey little non 4x4s that get under your wheels sometimes :devil:

M
:D :)
Now that I have your written confession, you will be hearing from my money grabbing legal representative shortly.

Regards,
John
Owner of Tall, long, lean, spoilt, wooze of a long haired German Shepherd, two kids, wife, no mortgage and a long, wide diesel smoking speed breaking estate car.
 
Big Ed said:
I've watched this thread with interest...
claps.gif


Some very good, well thought out points Ed.

Cheers,

Will :)
 
Hi,

Nuff said now but I would like to make some final observations.

1. From the two studies mentioned (relating to accident statistics) a fair conclusion from these studies (in the absence of further statistical data) is that accident statistics for 4 x 4's are no worse nor better than for average family cars ;) .

2. As for 'built like trucks etc.' modern 4 x 4's (X5, VX, RX etc.) have moved away from 'ladder frame' chassis's etc. (as will the new ML) to give far better on road handling :D (at the expense of (true) off-road ability).

3. As for being 'gas guzzlers' 4 x 4's will (soon) be an important test bed for future generations of hybrid vehicles (the extra weight of battery is not as significant for this size of vehicle etc.). For example the RX400h hybrid will be available next year and Mercedes is currently testing an ML hybrid (ML-hyper) and will have a hybrid option for next S-class (not a 'small' car').

4. This leaves the 'school run' syndrome. This (I'll assume) relates (predominantly) to working mothers, who, perhaps are simply reflecting the current lack of courtesy/driving manners on our roads and, therefore, just 'feel' safer ;) (especially for/with their offspring e.g they don't get cut and other drivers give way etc.). I'm not condoning this practice cos I feel that all drivers/vehicles involved in the school run are a pain in the proverbials! :eek:

5. Thankfully we live in a Democracy where the individual has choice etc. (although rhetorical ranting, 'speed (only) kills' 4 x 4's are 'bad' etc.,) serve only to restrict these choices. Perhaps road tax should be based on (unlimited) top speed? ;).

Cheers,

Dieter
 
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Dieter said:
Hi,
4. This leaves the 'school run' syndrome. This (I'll assume) relates (predominantly) to working mothers, who, perhaps are simply reflecting the current lack of courtesy/driving manners on our roads and, therefore, just 'feel' safer ;) (especially for/with their offspring e.g they don't get cut and other drivers give way etc.). I'm not condoning this practice cos I feel that all drivers/vehicles involved in the school run are a pain in the proverbials! :eek:

At some personal risk because my wife drives a ladder frame, mud encrusted, dog and child infested 4x4 on a daily basis and yes, does the school run in it, I will let the forum know (purely as a point of information and not expressing any view upon the matter) what the X5/softroader type of vehicle engaged in that particular activity is sometimes known as in these parts:

A Bitch Wagon.

I should add that my wife who learnt to drive in a farm Landrover at the age of 10 somewhere near Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch (well it sounds something like that anyway) is a vocal critic of the standards of driving and general behaviour she sees on a daily basis.
 
Big Ed said:
p.s. Does this now make me even less liked on here? Had a BMW, AND likes 4x4's!!

Not at all. You have made some very good points in a sensible, objective and well constructed manner. Have a well deserved good reputation point.
 

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