It appears I have to go to court

[imadoofus]

John,

I am speaking from dim recollection, and this isn't my specialism. I could ask Mrs Doofus, my pet lawyer, but she's not here today.

In a civil trial, both parties must ensure that everybody involved in the case are available on the scheduled dates. If Robert had said "Well, I'll be on holiday", and if his testimony was material, that would be sufficient to reschedule the case.

In a criminal trial, however, the trial date is set by the court, and the relevant witnesses can be summonsed to appear on a specific date, regardless of their whereabouts (and subject to one or two 'get-outs' of which holidays isn't one).

I stand to be corrected, but I know that civil and criminal cases are treated differently.

PJ

PS: If it is a criminal case that was adjourned, then I don't think there's much Robert can do about it, or about compensation.

 

[glojo]

I stand to be corrected, but I know that civil and criminal cases are treated differently.

PJ

PS: If it is a criminal case that was adjourned, then I don't think there's much Robert can do about it, or about compensation.

I think we are singing from the same hymn sheet but perhaps misunderstanding the words?

I would never ever dream of mentioning 'compensation'. As a witness we are entitled to claim expenses. It is not any fault of a witness if a trial does not go ahead, they are simply ordered to attend the court at a given time on a given date. If we forget Robert for a moment and insert a self employed vet that is required to attend a criminal court on a specific date. This person is fully entitled to submit a bill for ALL the hours they have lost by attending the court AND returning back to their practice. This is not compensation as such, it is expenses.

I have only ever attended a civil court as a witness on a few very rare occasions and what a difference. One example being where I was accommodated at the Royal Horse Guards Hotel, off Whitehall and that was for 10 days. All my expenses were paid for, including evening entertainment plus I was given a very nice hire car for the 14 days!! (I could have opted for first class rail fare) NONE OF THIS IS PAID BY THE COURT, it is a civil case and as such I guess the party that seeks your testimony has to allegedly pay your expenses and then these will be part of any settlement. This last paragraph is way outside of my knowledge and I am only repeating my personal experiences, they may or my not still apply.

John

 

[jj_uk]

Imadoofus, sorry, I am going to correct you slightly!

Yes, you are right that a witness can be summonsed to appear but courts are very mindful of the inconvenience that being a prosecution witness can be and will always try to minimize this. It sounds as if this trial date was fixed without Robert’s availability being first confirmed (because it was after the 6 month period for which he had given his availability). A letter explaining this sent upon hearing the trial date would have been enough to have it changed (if his attendance was so important). A holiday is a perfectly good reason not to be available. I cannot conceive of a witness summons being issued in such circumstances.

Compensation is available for prosecution witnesses in criminal trials and includes travelling, subsistence and loss on earnings where appropriate.

 

[imadoofus]

Thanks JJ, I had expected to be corrected, although it seems I was partly right ) ).

John - to clarify; my use of the word 'compensation' was perhaps ill-advised. 'Recompense' would more closely reflect my intention.

PJ

 

[pammy]

. I cannot conceive of a witness summons being issued in such circumstances.

.

In my previous life we had a car stolen. It was eventually recovered and the scum tol the police that my then OH had sold it to him in the pub. All utter lies but he pleaded not guilty so was reported to Court. The prosecution obviously wanted my OH there as the witness to say the defendant was lying. Ok no prob's up to now.

We were not asked when we would be available and when the date came through it was right in the middle of our holiday. We pointed this out but were advised tough - turn up or a summons for your arrest will be issued.

So we cancelled the holiday, turned up at court only to find the scum had changed his plea to guilty and so no appearance necessary.

Make of that what you will.

 

[jj_uk]

Pammy, who told you to turn up or expect to be arrested? CPS staff may not like hearing that a witness is unavailable. It will mean finding out when everyone is next available, going to court, requesting an adjourment and fixing a new date. And they might get a grilling as to why the previous date failed which could be embarassing if it's their fault (they hadn't checked availability). So, of course, it's easier to bully you to make you change your arrangements. CPS may request a summons but only a magistrate or judge can grant it. In reality, I don't think the request would even be made to the court.

 

[glojo]

Compensation is available for prosecution witnesses in criminal trials and includes travelling, subsistence and loss on earnings where appropriate.

Has the wording changed or is it still an expenses claim form? I would hate to give the wrong wording and bow to information that might supercede my own

John

 

[pammy]

Pammy, who told you to turn up or expect to be arrested? CPS staff may not like hearing that a witness is unavailable. It will mean finding out when everyone is next available, going to court, requesting an adjourment and fixing a new date. And they might get a grilling as to why the previous date failed which could be embarassing if it's their fault (they hadn't checked availability). So, of course, it's easier to bully you to make you change your arrangements. CPS may request a summons but only a magistrate or judge can grant it. In reality, I don't think the request would even be made to the court.

The police officer dealing with the case - it was a long time ago to be fair, about 16 years ago, and until now I'd forgotten all about it.

 

[glojo]

Witness Expense Claim Forms

Regards
John

 

[robert.saunders]

Well today was the day and I duly attended to give my evidence. It was genuinely interesting and I had to arrive at 1115am, but the hearing was delayed until 1215pm. The first witness was called in and I had to wait my turn. The witness support people were very helpful and kept me chatting during the waiting. We had our own room separate to everybody else.

The first witness came back and we were not allowed to speak to each other, and the usher said to me see you in 1 hour, it’s lunchtime! So, off I went to eat a sarnie and then back I went, and straight into the court room. It was very formal but not too bad, 3 magistrates, defence and prosecution, plus defendant and the usher. Nearly 4 hours spent waiting and giving evidence, in all. All for a charge of driving without due care & attention.

I was asked questions by the prosecution, and gave my version of what I saw, and then the defence cross-examined me. That was quite painless and the defence was very quick, and I unintentionally made some sarcasm in one of my responses but it made the prosecution chuckle

Then the boss-magistrate asked me to clarify some things and it was good he did, as clearly he wasn’t sure how the actual crash happened.

I got a taste through some of the questioning the line that the defence is taking, in that the 2 cars were not racing and the crash car was somehow goaded into the accident, but who knows. I was to stick around and hear the police who were called after me but I had to get back to work and so I was dismissed from court. Hopefully the prosecution will call me with an update/outcome so watch this space

 

[robert.saunders]

Home now, message was left on my answer-phone by the prosecution chappie. He has said that he was grateful for my valuable appearance today, the defendant has been convicted of dangerous driving* and will be sentenced early in October as they are awaiting a pre-sentencing report as they are not ruling out a custodial sentence.

I feel weird now, I guess justice is happening, and the wheels are in motion

* I assume the charge can be upgraded? Initially the trial was for driving without due care & attention

 

[TomTanderson]

I didn't think that you could be found guilty of a worse offence only a lighter one, (for instance you can be found guilty of driving without due care and attention if charged with dangerous driving).

Are you sure the prosecution didn't change the charge (or add to it) before it went to court?

 

[robert.saunders]

I wasn't made aware of any changes to the charge(s) unless the charge has to be upgraded to consider a custodial? I'm only guessing

 

[Plodd]

Tom is correct. If charged with dangerous it could be reduced to a due care but not the other way round.

 

[robert.saunders]

So could the charge have changed prior to the trial? Or did the CPS prosecutor just word it incorrectly for his message? Is a custodial normal for driving without due care etc?

I'm just curious now

 

[UnMarked]

The CPS messenger may just have got mixed-up by the sound of it. I'm not aware of any charge being 'upped' at Court (pretty sure this isn't lawful but will stand being corrected - known plenty reduced pre-trail though!); give them a ring and let us know.

Careless driving rarely invokes a custodial sentence, however causing death by careless driving has recently become statute and this will without doubt cause much discussion when the first few come to court.

Finally, in my experience, someone convicted of dangerous driving alone again rarely receives a custodial sentence - normally there has to be other mitigating circumstances at the time, i.e, injury, previous driving convictions, level of 'danger' etc.

 

[crockers]

So Robert no Prison showers for you..................... never mind you must try harder next time...

 

[del320]

Are you being put on a witness protection scheme?

... be afraid ...

 

[jj_uk]

If custody is being considered the charge cannot have been careless driving and must have been dangerous driving. There is no custodial option for careless driving. The maximum penalty is a fine together with points and/or disqualification (though Unmarked is right to draw attention to the new charge of causing death by careless driving which carries up to 6 months when tried summarily and 5 years on indictment).

 

[robert.saunders]

I haven't heard further but the CPS prosecutor said it would be in October, he may call me back with a further update. The letter(s) I received definitely said driving without due care but let's face it this was over the course of the year, perhaps the charge did alter over time? I don't know enough of how it all works.

Anyway, I haven't been relocated to Oban and sadly I'll be waiting for soap dropping incidents in the showers for a while longer